Large Scale Central

Tom Ruby's Safety Pin Powered Snap Switch

Track and Trestles
#1

Tom has shared this idea and photo on a number of occasions…

This is a cool idea that solves a problem in my indoor yard where track is too close for standard Aristo switch throws. I car reach all of the points from the edge of the bench, so why not! Well - the simpler an idea, the more it baffles me. I had a safety pin on hand, I cut off the end and bent it, drilled some holes and plopped it in. The first time I flipped the switch the pin went sailing, so I modified the bend to as close to a Z as I can get. Now I find that the location of the holes is critical if you want the switch to stay snapped in either direction. I also can’t get the spring to lie flat against the ties, It always wants to lift up which will cause it to catch on equipment. So TOM… Care to share the details and tricks? I think my pin was too big (about an inch or so) - I’m off in search of smaller ones JR

#2

Actually Jon, you don’t really need a safety pin. Brass wire bent in an “L” shape with a 90 on each end works just as well. I have a few on my layout . It just helps keep the points tighter aginst the rail…the brass wire is easily adjusted to fit so it doesn’t fly out.

#3

Um… I’ve never had one pop out or refuse to lay flat.

#4

That is pins you’re talking about ,Tom ?
Mike

#5

So what size pins are you using?

Is there a definite place to drill the holes, or was it just dumb luck?

What is the bend; just a right angle or a “Z” bend?

Are the holes a tight fit (do you have to PUSH the pin in), are are they roomy?

[color=blue]I DEMAND ANSWERS[/color] :smiley:

JR

#6

Oh. Maybe your holes are too tight. The hole point is to get the springy pin to push the holes apart. I used little ones. Since you get a hundred at Wal*Mart for 98 cents, they’re cheap.

#7

Just to add another data point, I spent some time trying to get this idea to work, and it baffles me too. I can get it so it snaps one way. Or the other. But not so it RELIABLY snaps into EITHER position just from wheels going over. If the spring tension is high enough to keep the points in either position, then it’s so high that it pushes wheels aside. Even if the wheels don’t jump the track, they get shoved all the way over against the opposite rail, so they don’t push the point far enough to force it to snap over.

Sorry if this doesn’t make sense…the point is, I’d like to get this working too! Maybe I’ll post pictures of my attempt.

Tim

#8

Hi Tim,

I’m not sure if Tom is intentionally keeping the answers secret, or as his signature suggests, he doesn’t know :slight_smile:

I found that by changing the position of the hole in the throw bar the “snap” goes to either side, or just one side. I haven’t tried using wheels to throw it because I can’t get the pin to stay in place. The pin I was testsing bent to the breaking point by repeated attempts, so I guess I’ll just head over to wally world and by a $.98 bag of the small pins and keep trying.

I’m only looking for finger power to work, no need for wheels to do the job, but that would be OK too.

What wheels are you using? Bachman metal wheels are probably too light and forget about plastic.

JR

#9

Jon,

I’ve always been interested in this safety pin idea, since Tom first presented it to the internet world of large scale track enthusiasts, many moons ago.

I guess this question should go to Tom, The “less than a dollar” bag of Wally World pins, are these brass safety pins or are they chrome coated spring steel or what?

The Aristo Craft turnouts spring over and come back, but the LGB 1600 turnouts spring over and stay at the new position. Jon, is this what you are trying to achieve?

The KVRwy has all LGB 1600 turnouts on the permananetly layed row. The exception is the portable live steam track, that is all Aristo Craft track and therefore has the AC turnouts.

Protypically, I guess the spring points that swing over and comeback are more realistic. But, I’ve gotten use to the LGB 1600 style that swing over and stay. I use these on the inside portion of the KVRwy and like the “Timesaver” portion that you’ve seen, they are operated by your finger. Boy, that would sure slow the “Timesaver” down, if you had to throw each turnout. On the outside portion, I just remove the switchmachine, this allows the points to float in the ballast. They stay where you put them and are held there by the ballast. This came about because of failure of the switch machines, outside. I was orignally going to put hand throws on, like the IPP&WRR or a commercially made turnout control like Llagas Creek, but found it was more workable to just leave them float.

Now, because of the number of turnouts, whatever I do would be a major undertaking. And I guess it would introduce a new learning (or relearning curve) to take the time to throw the turnout more protypically. Of course in reality, that is what I want to do, be more protypical. I don’t know if I have the patients to move that much slower in creating or resolving a switching situation.

#10

IMHO, if we are going to use the term “operate” when we are running trains we need to slow down our switching moves. After all, in real life a brakeman has to throw the turnout, the locomotive backs into to the siding to either drop off or pick up cars. Then the brakeman has to open the knuckles, the couple made then air hoses attached. This all takes time. While I don’t take the 2-3 minutes the real RR’s do I do try to not rush the move and hold for a few seconds. What has helped me the most in not rushing everything is SOUND! The ear wants to hear the locomotive idling for that few moments while the turnout is thrown. I want to hear the locomotive moving slowly to couple…and the idle while the brakeman “couples the hoses”. Thus we need (again IMO) to hand throw the turnouts not rely on the train to push the points aside. I’m not sure that Aristo turnouts were ever designed to have the points shoved by wheels. I believe the throw on them is slightly less than LGB’s which would change the dynamics of the throw. I’ve seen similar devices suggested before (made out of spring wire) but never invisioned them being used to “snap” the switch when the train runs over it, but was intended to hold the points against the outside rail to insure good electrical contact for power routing.

Warren

#11

I think it may be a good idea to mount your spring UNDER the sleepers and throw bar . Not easy if your track is bolted down .
So put a bit of timber dressing over the spring if you must have it on top . Disguise it . There’s all sorts of odd bits of timber on points that don’t seem to do a lot .
I do not know if there has been an explanation of what this thing is trying to do . I have used it successfully by the following means
Because this spring is meant to be an Overcentre Locking Assister , it is important to get equal throw either way on the spring .
So . Measure and mark the centre of the sleeper and the throw bar , mark them accurately .
Now take your pin and make sure that it can reach the cross pieces previously marked . Assuming this to be the case , carefully drill the dead centre of the cross pieces previously marked to the diameter of the pin you are using . Using a drill slowly on plastic will not cause melting–if it does melt , you are either using a blunt drill or going at it too fast .
Now try putting the spring in . If by some remarkable chance it works exactly as you want it first time , leave well alone .
Bung a piece of timber over as suggested above to hold the pin and diguise it .
If it doesn’t work , adjust the bend on the spring to achieve the correct distance between legs .This should be just over the length between the holes you drilled .Too long and it will pop out . Too short and it will oppose what you are trying to achieve .
I have found that the bend on the legs of the pin can cause problems if it is too round . Ideally it should be square , not rounded .To ahieve this , I used brass , heated red and allowed to cool naturally to de-temper it . The right angle bends should now be easier to achieve . Heat red again and plunge into cold beer . Or water , oil or whatever will give a case hardening effect .
It worked for me .
I now do not need this because I use PECO points , they have this spring built in .
Mike

#12

The idea is so simple, I’m not sure what’s going wrong.

Tim, it sounds like your holes aren’t lined up. Center the points and drill two tiny holes lined up with each other. The purpose of the spring is to push the holes away from each other. To switch the points, you just have to push the points enough that the hole in the throwbar passes the hole in the tie.

I use real cheap ones. These are plated steel and might rust. The brass might be nicer for that reason. I didn’t much worry about it 'cause if one rusted out and failed, it only takes a minute to replace it.

I like Mike’s Z bend idea. I’ll try it some time.

Ric uses the same idea without the spring. Works great on his layout as long as you have something handy to get the ballast out of the works.

I put the pin on top of the ties for easy inspection and maintenance.

#13

Now we’re getting somewhere!

Mike - thanks for the technical step-by-step. I can usually understand mechanics once someone shows me what it’s supposed to be doing. I have a hard time guessing what forces are supposed to do what by just looking at a photo - my brain doesn’t work that way.

Warren - Good point(s) :slight_smile: In my case, I don’t want them to be wheel operated, just to allow for elimination of the Aristo switch machines in a yard where the trackwork causes conflicts with the switch machines. I need a locking mechanism to hold the points in place after manually moving them that doesn’t require that big plastic box. Tenmille throws would probably fit, but the $.98/100 is very appealing. Spray painted black they won’t stick out too bad on my indoor layout with it’s green paper grass :slight_smile:

I think the desire for wheel operated is for reversing loops to make an unattended continuous run. I’d kind of like this on my indoor reverse loop so I could stay outside while the train turns on the loop. But since 95% of my power is through the track, I need to go in to flop the polarity anyway, so a stop is required. Outdoors I turn on a Wye where every switch requires a stop (by design & rulebook).

Thanks for all the input. Wally World is on my lunch-time to-do list.

JR

#14

Warren,

I absolutely agree with you about slowing down and allowing the operations to be protypical. I work at this, also.

However, I do have a largescale “Timesaver” switching puzzle that is part of my layout. It is portable so we can take it to train shows. When demonstrating this for people or allowing other people to work the puzzle it is judged frequently on time as to how fast and how many moves it takes to complete the switching maneuvers. Though I don’t normally run through the points. You do get into the frenzy of throwing the turnout for you next move as the unit is moving away or toward you. I guess it is just the adrenalin pumping reactions to competition. Even if it just with yourself. :wink:

#15

I’ve never used the timesaver…either in large scale or dinky scale. I’m not into competition…unless it’s caboose races :smiley: But then again I don’t “operate” like the HO guys do either. I just can’t get that nit pickin’. One of the big reasons I have my own railroad is so I can write my own rules…mostly the KISS principle.

Back to the turnouts…I would imagine that they take quite an abuse when doing the timesaver against the clock. I can see how the extra spring would help to insure that the points are set sufficiently enough to guard against a locomotive splitting the points. A locomotive in the dirt would be a disaster in competition :frowning:

Warren

#16

"A locomotive in the dirt would be a disaster in competition "

A locomotive falling 40 inches or so to a concrete floor of a convention hall would be worse.

Gary B. and others have become the masters of the one hand catch when the little hands get carried away with pushing the throttle buttons. But some damage to a piece of gear is worth the price, if you see a little guy’s or gal’s eyes light up when completing the puzzle. We use track power and set the throttle to 50%, so highballin through the yard is limited. But some get a death grip on pushing the button. They figure the harder you push, the faster it will go. Aristo has been good about rebuilding the TE’s. Warren that KISS principal is always on my mind. Especially everytime I make my life a little more difficult. :wink:

The simplicity and reliability of the LGB turnouts lead to them being used on the “Timesaver” and really through out most of our railroad.

#17

My indoor layout is currently all LGB 1600’s but I’m getting ready to replace one turnout with a USAT #6. My RDC’s do not like “S” curves at the 1600 radius. Since I have the room I’m installing the #6 so I can place them on the siding without them doing “wheelies”. Coupled together the front car goes into the siding on 4 wheels. It’s never derailed but looks strange as hell…:smiley: I’m also having to replace one of the station track switches for the same reason. There it will get an LGB 1800. That one is in a tunnel and is operated using my TE and the accessory controller. As that turnout is signalled with the Aristo signal tower using the EPL accessory I need to stay with the LGB turnout. I have to keep the signal as it is the only way I can tell which way the turnout is thrown. As for my outdoor layout which is under construction, it is going to be stainless so I’m stuck with Aristo turnouts.

Warren

#18

Pavement diving from the trunk lid of the car was a little rough on equipment :o

#19

OK - Back to the topic, if you don’t mind :o

The solution was the trip to Wally World. They didn’t have the 100/$.98 but an even better deal of 250/$1.99. The package was an assortment of #1 and #2 safety pins. I don’t know how the numbering system works, but the bigger one seems about right.

My initial problems were two-fold. 1- The pin I used was way too large (a #4 perhaps) and the spring too powerful. 2- I didn’t know to center the points when drilling the hole.

I cut a #2 (?), put 90 degree bends in the end, opened it up for a little more spring tension and inserted it into the holes I drilled before Mike edumacated me on the correct placement. IT WORKS!!!

I proceeded on to do the same for 3 other turnouts, using my calipers to precisely locate the center and a pin-vise with a 1/64" drill bit to bore the holes. Even with this level of precision, they work no better than the one I eye-balled.

Testing with Aristo R1 switches and a Bachman caboose with Bachman metal wheels, a car run against closed points from the inside successfully pushed the points over to where they locked in the opposite (correct) position. I believe, with proper placement of the hole that this could be made to work like a prototypical spring switch that returns to the original position after allowing wheels to push through.

Thanks for all the help.

Jon

#20

I never tried using it as a “spring switch” where it puts the points back when the train has passed. I just wanted a snap so the points would be thrown all the way.