I found this fascinating. It never occurred to me, and apparently it doesn’t occur to Amtrak executives, that there is more to measure the value of a rail service than whether or not tickets equal expenses. Profitability is measured in many ways.
In the Northeast corridor, you have a choice, The Acela or I-95. Sometimes it’s a no brainer.
Perhaps also of interest,
A white paper issued by the Rail Passengers Association, “Amtrak’s Route Accounting: Fatally Flawed, Misleading & Wrong,” contends that Amtrak’s fully allocated cost methodology “grossly exaggerates the cost of operating the national passenger train system. This, in turn, has lead to the conclusion adopted by many elected leaders and other affected stakeholders that abandonment of key long-distance trains will save Amtrak significant sums and lead to a more financially secure national passenger operation.”
https://www.railwayage.com/news/amtraks-faulty-route-accounting-rpa/
See also:
In the January 2019 issue of Trains Magazine there was an extensive article by Bob Johnston about Amtrak’s accounting system which often bills major costs to trains outside of the NEC which results according to Amtrak these trains losing a great deal of money. An example of this is the Southwest Chief which brings in almost 50 million dollars in revenue a year, but according to Amtrak “costs 104 million dollars” to run so it loses Amtrak 54 million dollars. Surprisingly this article referenced a paper by the Rail Passengers Association titled “Amtrak’s Route Accounting:Fatally Flawed, Misleading, and Wrong.” What this white paper targets is Amtrak’s use of allocating costs to individual train lines. What Amtrak doesn’t do is audit the actual costs of a service by adding up the fuel bills, required equipment maintenance or direct labor costs and so on of individual trains. Most of theses “cost” are allocated often on a route mile basis to individual trains. This arbitrary method of accounting tends to inflate the assumed costs of Amtrak service outside of the Northeast Corridor and reduce the assumed costs of the Northeast Corridor. Among the examples of strange allocated costs in Mr. Johnston’s article were charges for snow removal for the Miami, Florida station and for maintenance of rail electrication on non electrified lines. Also odd about Amtrak’s accounting is its charging track maintenance on the NEC which it owns as a capital expense and not as an operating expense. But for all other non-NEC Amtrak trains, maintenance costs are charged as operating costs not as capital costs.
https://ntbraymer.wordpress.com/2018/12/22/whats-wrong-with-amtrak-accounting/
It never occurred to me, and apparently it doesn’t occur to Amtrak executives, that there is more to measure the value of a rail service than whether or not tickets equal expenses.
John, those Amtrak Executives are under constant pressure from Congress, who are pressured by their constituents, who have never ridden a train. The latter want the government to stop wasting money on a service they never use. It never occurs to them that there are places not served by any other transportation, or that some people cannot fly or drive for medical reasons. To my amazement there is no concept of the “Common Good” in the American desire for life with minimum government interference.
NARP (or the Rail Passengers Association as it is now called) are happy to point out that Amtrak ‘profit’ calculations never include the economic benefit of providing transportation between under-served communities.
Pete Thornton said:
…
John, those Amtrak Executives are under constant pressure from Congress, who are pressured by their constituents, who have never ridden a train. …
You’re right, Pete, I never thought of that. I suppose we should give them the benefit of the doubt.
As far as the Common Good, there’s a lot of “What’s in it for me?” going around lately. Maybe it’s always been that way; the older I get the fewer “new” things or phenomena I see.
As someone who uses long distance and will be using it soon (6 people Chicago to Phoenix , approx $2200.00) I am getting more and more worried that an enjoyable relaxing way to travel without the hassle of a TSA feeldown search will be going away. Bearded Amtrak guy , you could almost tell he was saying stuff he didn’t believe and would not consider anything other that his prepared talking points. I hope they will see the other side of thing and maybe add shorter routes along with keeping the long distance routes. And I would like to see Amtrak come back to Phoenix instead of having to ride a shuttle from Phoenix to Maricopa 45 miles away
All of the talking about the common good is valid, from a public standpoint. But a true, money making business, looks at the bottom line. The P&L sheet, dictates what companies will continue to to do, and what they will stop doing. The problem with P&L sheets, dictating decisions, is that the information on the P&L sheet needs to be accurate. If, Amtrak is in fact using average costs to figure things out, it will skew the results. They should look at actual costs on each route, compared to actual receipts for that route.
I personally would like to see train travel return. But there is a valid reason most railroads ceded their passenger service to Amtrak when it was founded. And that reason was, in most cases, that passenger service was a money loosing proposition for the railroads at that time.
I think some of the reasons that ridership dropped were valid , at the time. People were enamored with air travel and trains became the “poor peoples” travel of choice. Now I look at it as a way to enjoy the trip, see places you wouldn’t normally see and to do something different. Like I said above 6 of us are riding the train in December just to do it differently. This will be the 5the rail trip for my wife and I and for our daughter /and family the first and we are all looking forward to this part of our travels. No one is talking about the flight there, just the train ride back. 15 and 12 yr old are looking forward to it too!
I suppose I’d better get my trip to visit the Colorado based preserved railways, starting in Denver via an approach from the west coast on the California Zephyr, done sooner rather than later later. Could these old established services end up like the Ghan in Australia or the Blue Train in SA as some sort of price hiked tourist heritage service only ?
Mail contracts funded passenger trains, when Airlines stole the mail, rail passengers lost.
Amtrak started as a Congressional Band-aid, was never intended to make money and was seen more as public work. Then a new bunch of congress men decided that Amtrak should make a profit to continue. At the same time, under funding began …
That is why you see creative accounting.
All of the talking about the common good is valid, from a public standpoint. But a true, money making business, looks at the bottom line.
Mr Maynard, there is no “But” when discussing a public service. Take airlines - your tax dollars pay for airports, many of which are built as “economic enhancers” to attract new business. That’s what having a passenger railroad does on a smaller scale.
Why do many cities subsidize commuter railroads? For the economic benefit of transporting large numbers of people efficiently and therefore encouraging more business. There’s no actual P&L as it is difficult to quantify economic growth over a region.
Many countries subsidize passenger railroads precisely to avoid more investment in roads and airports. Most European countries don’t have room for more roads anyway. I concur that it is more economical in time and money to fly if the journey is over 500 miles (the usually break-even.) But there are still public needs that cannot be met by airlines, like people who can’t fly.
Amtrak started as a Congressional Band-aid, was never intended to make money and was seen more as public work.
I think I’ve seen it stated that the laws passed establishing Amtrak say that it was not expected to make money.
Well, if it is a public service entity, then all that stuff about P&L goes right into the circular file. But I thought, and I could be wrong, but I thought it was supposed to be at least breaking even at some point.
Well, here’s the bottom line: A trip on the train costs a LOT more than first class airfare to the same destination…but it’s MUCH slower and rougher. If you’re traveling by train, you’re almost guaranteed to get in MUCH later than scheduled. The track is probably OK for freight service, but for passengers, not so much. Sure, you can look out the windows…
Bruce Chandler said:
Well, here’s the bottom line: A trip on the train costs a LOT more than first class airfare to the same destination…but it’s MUCH slower and rougher. If you’re traveling by train, you’re almost guaranteed to get in MUCH later than scheduled. The track is probably OK for freight service, but for passengers, not so much. Sure, you can look out the windows…
Bruce, that’s a little exaggerated. Most of the North East Corridor (NEC) trains run fairly close to time [airlines report if more than 15mins late - Amtrak isn’t usually much worse.] I take the Autotrain to Florida and it often arrives early. (Except, like last trip, when someone decides to commit suicide by jumping in front of it!) I’m not going to quote the economics of the Autotrain, but most of my friends think it’s the greatest thing since sliced bread and Amtrak built some nice new terminals for it.
Let’s go back to airlines, as that’s where you started. Who pays for airports - the airlines don’t build them? Railroads build and maintain their own infrastructure at their own expense. Most class 1 RR have excellent track - the Autotrain travels mostly on CSX on long-welded rail with concrete ties. What would you think if each airline had to pay for its own terminal at an airport? Where they could afford it (JFK comes to mind) the public hated the airport as it was so difficult to get around.
Yes, some freight lines are rough, and many Amtrak trains use 30+ year old equipment because they are starved for capital and can’t buy new ones. A bigger problem is that freight trains operate at 55mph as that is their optimal speed. The NEC is owned by Amtrak and can handle 100+ mph (thanks to the PRR!) Virginia is subsidizing CSX to add a 3rd track south to Richmond so they can get Acela service there.
You should try a train sometime!
Actually reserved coach train travel is very competitive with airline travel,last trip from Chicago to Flagstaff ,( a relative picked us up and took us the 2.5 hrs south to home) was about 3 dollars less per person than flying Southwest . If I remember right the reserved coach tickets for our December trip via Texas Eagle/ Sunset Limited were within $10.00 of Southwest tickets. The sleeper tickets are what add to the price, but your meals are included in that full price, and leaving Chicago @3pm we get Dinner, breakfast, Dinner , breakfast and dinner again, the trip on this one is 52 hours with a big layover in San Antonio waiting for the Sunset train to come, and couple to the through Texas Eagle cars. So for 6 people to fly to Chicago and to ride the train home , while the train is a lot more expensive , we get more time with family , and have an adventure at the same time! I guess it all depends on how you look at the travel as to whither it is for you. I do both but if time is not of the essence then I will pick the train, and flying in December is probably a bigger risk of delays or down right cancellations due to weather than a train trip.
On several sections of the Southwest Chief the steward said we were allowed 90 mph notably in NM and AZ we were flying along and would have arrived on Flagstaff ahead of time until a freight train had an “uncommanded emergency application “ in downtown Flagstaff.We wound up 15- 20 minutes late and had to shuffle 2 cars at a time due to no platform on the track we used. We had to disembark on the street crossing .
Pete Thornton said:
Bruce Chandler said:
Well, here’s the bottom line: A trip on the train costs a LOT more than first class airfare to the same destination…but it’s MUCH slower and rougher. If you’re traveling by train, you’re almost guaranteed to get in MUCH later than scheduled. The track is probably OK for freight service, but for passengers, not so much. Sure, you can look out the windows…
Bruce, that’s a little exaggerated. Most of the North East Corridor (NEC) trains run fairly close to time [airlines report if more than 15mins late - Amtrak isn’t usually much worse.] I take the Autotrain to Florida and it often arrives early. (Except, like last trip, when someone decides to commit suicide by jumping in front of it!) I’m not going to quote the economics of the Autotrain, but most of my friends think it’s the greatest thing since sliced bread and Amtrak built some nice new terminals for it.
Let’s go back to airlines, as that’s where you started. Who pays for airports - the airlines don’t build them? Railroads build and maintain their own infrastructure at their own expense. Most class 1 RR have excellent track - the Autotrain travels mostly on CSX on long-welded rail with concrete ties. What would you think if each airline had to pay for its own terminal at an airport? Where they could afford it (JFK comes to mind) the public hated the airport as it was so difficult to get around.
Yes, some freight lines are rough, and many Amtrak trains use 30+ year old equipment because they are starved for capital and can’t buy new ones. A bigger problem is that freight trains operate at 55mph as that is their optimal speed. The NEC is owned by Amtrak and can handle 100+ mph (thanks to the PRR!) Virginia is subsidizing CSX to add a 3rd track south to Richmond so they can get Acela service there.
You should try a train sometime!
You are absolutely correct! I have very limited experience. We took the “Crescent” from D.C. to New Orleans a few years ago and I base my comments on that trip. Much more than several HOURS late. A very rough ride. Accommodations were tight for a “room”. I joked that it was a “once in a lifetime” experience but unfortunately we bought a round trip ticket and had to do it twice! Never again!
Bruce Chandler said:
If you’re traveling by train, you’re almost guaranteed to get in MUCH later than scheduled.
Looking over many months at Numbers 3 and 4, the Southwest Chief, at La Plata, Missouri, on Virtual Railfan’s live stream, yep.
https://youtu.be/g_4RT0We1F8
And is it exaggerated?
Well, let’s look here, https://twitter.com/amtrakalerts?lang=en
Auto Train 53 which departed Lorton (LOR) on 9/26, is currently operating approximately 2hrs late due to earlier…
Texas Eagle Train 421 which departed Chicago (CHI) on 9/24, is currently operating approximately 3hrs 45mins arriving into Tucson (TUS).
UPDATE: Capitol Limited Train 30 which departed Chicago (CHI) on 9/26 is back on the move and currently operating approx 1 hr 15 min late.
UPDATE: Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle Train 2/422 which departed Los Angeles (LAX) on 9/25 is back on the move and currently operating approx 4 hr 30 min late.
UPDATE: Southwest Chief Train 3 which departed Chicago (CHI) on 9/26 is back on the move and currently operating approx 1 hr late.
Southwest Chief Train 3 which departed Chicago (CHI) on 9/26 is currently stopped west of La Plata (LAP) due to freight interference. Updates to follow as more information becomes available.
Pere Marquette Train 370 is currently operating approximately 35mins late due to freight train interference and mechanical issues along its route.
Silver Meteor Train 98 which departed Miami (MIA) on 9/26 is currently operating approximately 2hrs late due to earlier rail congestion, weather-related issues and speed restrictions along its route.
Crescent Train 20 which departed New Orleans (NOL) on 9/26 is currently operating approximately 4 hours late due to freight train interference.
Texas Eagle Train 422 which departed Los Angeles (LAX) on 9/25 is currently stopped east of El Paso (ELP) due to unscheduled track work. An extended delay is expected.
Sunset Limited Train 2 which departed Los Angeles (LAX) on 9/25 is currently stopped east of El Paso (ELP) due to unscheduled track work. An extended delay is expected.
Need more?
Need more?
I think you need proper statistics like those the airlines are required to report, so you can find out how often your flight has been late in the past. A one-day snapshot isn’t very scientific.
And it does go to show the problems of co-existing on a freight railroad. Many of those delays are ‘freight train interference’ or ‘track problems’. Not under Amtrak’s control.
Forrest Scott Wood said:
Bruce Chandler said:
If you’re traveling by train, you’re almost guaranteed to get in MUCH later than scheduled.
Looking over many months at Numbers 3 and 4, the Southwest Chief, at La Plata, Missouri, on Virtual Railfan’s live stream, yep.
https://youtu.be/g_4RT0We1F8And is it exaggerated?
Well, let’s look here, https://twitter.com/amtrakalerts?lang=en
Auto Train 53 which departed Lorton (LOR) on 9/26, is currently operating approximately 2hrs late due to earlier…
Texas Eagle Train 421 which departed Chicago (CHI) on 9/24, is currently operating approximately 3hrs 45mins arriving into Tucson (TUS).
UPDATE: Capitol Limited Train 30 which departed Chicago (CHI) on 9/26 is back on the move and currently operating approx 1 hr 15 min late.
UPDATE: Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle Train 2/422 which departed Los Angeles (LAX) on 9/25 is back on the move and currently operating approx 4 hr 30 min late.
UPDATE: Southwest Chief Train 3 which departed Chicago (CHI) on 9/26 is back on the move and currently operating approx 1 hr late.
Southwest Chief Train 3 which departed Chicago (CHI) on 9/26 is currently stopped west of La Plata (LAP) due to freight interference. Updates to follow as more information becomes available.
Pere Marquette Train 370 is currently operating approximately 35mins late due to freight train interference and mechanical issues along its route.
Silver Meteor Train 98 which departed Miami (MIA) on 9/26 is currently operating approximately 2hrs late due to earlier rail congestion, weather-related issues and speed restrictions along its route.
Crescent Train 20 which departed New Orleans (NOL) on 9/26 is currently operating approximately 4 hours late due to freight train interference.
Texas Eagle Train 422 which departed Los Angeles (LAX) on 9/25 is currently stopped east of El Paso (ELP) due to unscheduled track work. An extended delay is expected.
Sunset Limited Train 2 which departed Los Angeles (LAX) on 9/25 is currently stopped east of El Paso (ELP) due to unscheduled track work. An extended delay is expected.
Where’s Mussolini when you need him?