I deleted what I wrote, and decided to stay out of the old debate…but I still want to point out the weak link in Electric Powered model railroading, that can be avoided, with new technology… Wheel to Rail contact…
…or steam… 
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
Padre,
You’re absolutely right … however those of us who run track powered DCC - doesn’t matter in which scale - have learned to cope with the “weakest link” in various ways and are very happy with the results. The simplest reason for the happiness: DCC permits us to do exactly what we like to do and the limits of what can be done are far from reached. That is presently the biggest difference between track power and battery.
Of course , that totally ignores the sliding skate option/addition . Try it .
Mike
Mike Morgan said:
Of course , that totally ignores the sliding skate option/addition . Try it .
Mike
Yeah, what about the LGB shoes?
(http://i.imgur.com/ttOUdBL.jpg)
Doesn’t matter though as we converted everything to onboard battery power, including our K-Line speeder. Using Airwire as the control system it’s just like DCC…sometimes better.
Too bad I can’t easily convert my HO trains to onboard battery. Not yet anyway.
hehe
I cope with the weak link by skipping it altogether and putting in a battery. Partly on Fr. Fred’s recommendation.
Yes Matt , quite so . The LGB skates are an excellent example . If they are painted an appropriate colour they are hardly noticeable . Not on the skating face , naturally .
The skate principle is used in many full scale applications . Use of them has a cleaning effect on the track , too . The Tube Trains in London all use skate pickup . Slightly larger than the LGB one , admittedly .
Improved operation can be achieved by putting pickups on the rolling stock , connecting the pickups through to the loco .
Like I said before , there is no “right” answer , and I use R/C Steam , R/C Battery , and track power .
A couple of runs round the track with a battery R/C job towing a cleaning vehicle can work wonders .
Mike
Fred Mills, BSc, BS, SD (Hons) said:
Ever since model railroading became electric powered, there has been a “Weak Link”, and no-matter what the so-called “Experts” say. it is “The Rail to wheel electrical contact”
All electrical connections are weak links, usually improved by some mechanical means. In model railroading, solder joints are often the most used.
The so called NEW TECHNOLOGY…
…
How to get rid of the WEAK LINK…
The answer is to carry the energy on the locomotive.
How…the same way you carry a light source in your hand in a flashlight…
How to control the energy remotely…by Radio Control, or as at home controlling your gadgets…WIRELESS
The staring “New Technology” that makes this possible is the NEW Battery Technology.
So…there is no need in most cases to depend on that old Rail Rail contact.
One of the problems of any hypothesis based discussion is often the conclusion does not always follow from the logic provided.
Consider the above summation of your argument.
- “The Rail to wheel electrical contact is a Weak Link”,
I doubt anyone will disagree with this hypothesie
- “How to get rid of the WEAK LINK…The answer is to carry the energy on the locomotive.”
Again a very logical conclusion
The problem is that you then jump to
- How…the same way you carry a light source in your hand in a flashlight…
and - “How to control the energy remotely…by Radio Control, or as at home controlling your gadgets…WIRELESS”
Alas while 3 is one possibility it is by no means the only one or even the best one.
For example I suspect the live steam folks might tend agree with 1 and 2 but not 3.
There are many ways to get information and energy to the locomotive battery with RC is but one.
Another way is capacitance coupling. With capacitance coupling energy goes to the locomotive when it can but instructions can go to the locomotive at any time. This means is a long deep tunnel you can still totally control your locomotive and you seldom if ever need to externally charge the power source in your locomotive and range is not an issue even to be considered.
Technology is moving forward quickly and I suspect in the next 5 years we will continue to see great advances in the power capabilities, the charging capabilities and the network transmission capabilities. For now your conclusion 4 is not even a viable option for our railroad.
Stan
North West Shortline markets an HO compatible system, and Crest was pushing theirs toward HO…for those that are interested.
Battery technology is just about there for HO…
Yes, Hans…“Coping with it” has become an art, in itself…!!
…and Terry…sorry I didn’t mention steam…Model steam technology has improved drastically too, unfortunately few of the people using steam have any interest in learning the true capabilities of their rather expensive locomotives, that can, with a good wireless control system, do more than just run at high speed around a large or small circle, after a push to get them going…
I’ve seen several on our railroad, actually switch, and pull trains of cars up and down grades, with never a hand touching them. A great pleasure to watch and hear…rather than the boredom (For me) after a few times around a circle of track… (Others will differ, and that is their right)…and not everyone has a large railroad available for them to actually OPERATE on.
Stan , I don’t disagree with most of what you say , but I am slightly puzzled about “Capacitive Coupling” . Not looking for an argument , just interested .
With regard to steam locos running flat out in circles , I confess to never having seen that . I have always used digital proportional radio control in my R/C applications , same as with our model trucks , tanks , and so on .
Even finer control by R/C is gained by fitting your electrically powered device with a speed controller in the motor circuit . Regrettably , I have never seen mention of this on rail forums except , oddly enough , my own mentions of it .
Mike
Wheel pickups in tenders and other cars electrically supporting the loco work great.
The premier version for me are the LGB (EXPENSIVE) ball-bearing wheels with built-in contacts. Big bucks – yet longevity.
A few drops of 5-30 Mobil One synthetic oil ensures that longevity by keeping them spinning – consider six years of use by two sets in the tender supporting a well-used LGB Mogul with badly worn wheel treads.
Dupe post.
tac
I drive MY steamers at scale speeds, honest.
Shays go around 5 - 8 mph.
Climax and Heisler 10 - 15 mph.
Connies - around 20 mph
Garratt - 15 - 25 mph
K27 - around 20-ish mph.
Gauge 1 express trains - 60 mph
and so on.
I like to see the wiggly bits without blurring.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
Wendell , the LGB wheel sets are what I had in mind about power transfer from the rolling stock .
You are correct , the ball race wheels cost a few bob more than normal ones , but it saves a lot of aggro , doesn’t it ?
And of course , the stock is more free running . You can’t go wrong .
I also use bronze strip pickups on the rolling stock , they work well too .
Mike
Mr. Ames…
“Not Viable”…Why not…even with DCC there are “Wireless options” with some systems, of DCC…or is it that you promote the system that doesn’t have that option ?
On a railroad of the size you have, wouldn’t Battery R/C be more flexible and no more expensive than DCC…and as you Operate, it would be far more user friendly for the operators.
The only thing it would prevent, is anyone without Battery R/C couldn’t run on your railroad…but that would be an inducement to them to buy into New Technology, and not the product you promote…so I guess I may not get an answer…
But I’m sure others might appreciate, and learn from your answer…I’m always open to learning something, even if I’m proven wrong.
Fred Mills, BSc, BS, SD (Hons) said:
…
Yes, Hans…“Coping with it” has become an art, in itself…!!
…
Padre,
For some reason DCC in the garden is the big thing in Europe, when I changed to IIm (1999) I started hanging out on the NA fora and the EU fora.
The approaches to electrical propulsion are poles apart (pun intended). Most everyone who uses DCC in the garden has figured out the basics and once that hurdle is crossed people seem to be as happy as … well you know what I mean.
BTW here is something to consider, many of the European layouts use automatic control. As everyone should know, one only runs auto control when things are running reliably… unless one really enjoys wearing a hair shirt.
tac , quite right too , not much point to step change from stop to flat out and back .
I can only wonder at the idea of getting a controllable loco and not controlling it . Seems daft .
My only problem is having to get insulated wheelsets if I want to mix steam power and track power . But because I only want to control one loco at a time , it doesn’t really matter .
Mike
Matt Doti said:
Too bad I can’t easily convert my HO trains to onboard battery. Not yet anyway.
Have a poke around here http://www.deltang.co.uk/ for information on the selection of"N" to “H0” on-board battery battery R/C equipment.
For extra reading on the implementation of battery R/C in small scales you could also go here: http://freerails.com/view_forum.php?id=45
Go to http://freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=4451&forum_id=45&page=69 and scroll down to post # 687 to see one installation combining a Deltang RX/ESC and a QSI sound decoder.
How come “The weakest link in electric powered model railroading” had to jump right into battery and steam power? I thought, maybe, I was going to get some ideas to help strengthen that link.
Skates are an option, but all of my 4 coupled LGB locomotives have had a skate ectomy. They had to, so that they could climb to the summit with an actual train.
Power pick ups on trail cars. That is an idea that has yet to implemented on my train sets. But locomotives that run with any number of cars right behind them aren’t going to benefit from that idea.
Putting capacitors in the locomotives might help, but for most locomotives they would have to be sizable capacitors.
Dcc is not cost nor operationally effective on my little railroad.
David, perhaps you should consider reducing the grade to the summit. There is always more than one way to skin a cat, once the problem has been defined.