I was wondering if anyone knows what the record is for highest grade percent achieved in G scale. In other words, how steep is the track and did the locomotive with its consist make it up that grade.
I was merely curious.
I saw a picture once a long time ago of this train in G moving up what looked like a fairly steep grade. of course it was just pictures and there was nothing else to explain it.
Thanks
LGB made a Cog loco and track, probably what you saw.
John
This was over 10% grade. Full (live) steam ahead for about 20ft. It usually required a quick stop to build up pressure, and then off she went. The grade was so strong, I could only run the loco up in reverse because the water in the boiler would flow back and block the steam valve in the cab. Electric engines such as USAT and Aristo four axle diesels had no problem taking the grade with a modest train, but some experienced surging while coming downgrade.
I cannot, however, recommend such a steep grade…in fact the 4% grade I had most everywhere else on the line was also too steep for my tastes now. Truly, 2-3% is as much as I would go for these days.
Yep, I try and keep my rr grades to <2%. I had one stretch of 5% that was on a 20’ curve, and 5-6 car trains would stall going up them (Connies, Ks, etc).
on my last layout i had grades of 7%. the locos were stainzes and they could draw 3 short (1ft.) cars.
on my unfinished actual layout i have 6% grades.
stainzes plus motorized tenders can easily draw five cars on them.
I’ve always used a 4 ft. level to measure my grades. 1inch of elevation over 48in of run is just over 2% grade. 1\2in over 48 is just over 1% and so forth…
Max grade 3.5% (a short section), otherwise max 3%. I “ordered” one of the digital level from the USA - prior to them being available up here … at a “normal” price.
10% grade WHOA!!!
LOL
That is a serious grade.
Thanks to all who replied. I was curious because, as everyone knows in here, railroads in real life tend to operate within the 1 to 3 percent grade. This, I presume is for safety reasons and for efficiency when pulling massive loads up and around mountains and passes. Like out west.
So, the question becomes…
Does live steam have more pulling power in scale versus electrical when dealing with grades greater than, say 3%??
Rockwall Canyon Jeff said:
I cannot, however, recommend such a steep grade…in fact the 4% grade I had most everywhere else on the line was also too steep for my tastes now. Truly, 2-3% is as much as I would go for these days.
Is that a Shay? I cannot tell and I am still not up on my steam locomotives just yet.
BTW Beautiful locomotive. really first rate.
5.5% downgrade, but trains will run up. A good running SD45 could only take about5-7 cars.
I run MU diesels and consisted steamers, so I can pull a short train up this, normal direction is down, about 50’ dropping 21 inches.
That’s pretty amazing Greg, considering the drop off is pretty steep.
I am guessing here, but it seems to me that live steam would have the greatest tractive effort when tackling these steep grades in scaled down railroads.
Am I wrong?
Anyway, this is interesting because in real life, trains never go beyond a certain point in terms of grades.
I watched one video of a coal train with helpers. I believe it was a bunch of SD 45’s lashed up old school with several more on the tail end trying to get up a 4% grade in the rain. The wheels were slipping, but eventually the whole train made the climb, but boy that was something else watching the efforts these 7 locomotives had to make to get those heavy coal hoppers up and around a mountain.
Hi Stacy,
Thanks for the compliment on the live steam shay. The answer about steam vs diesel is…no. In general, live steam model will rarely ever win in the traction or power race with electrics. The primary reason for live steam losing in traction is oily rails. The shay has the benefit of having only traction wheels, and having them in sort of a power truck arrangement which helps adhesion. Regarding power…most live steam engines have twin double acting cylinders that drive the wheels directly through the wheel cranks. At a certain grade, most traditional live steam engines will stall out. The shay has 3 double acting cylinders and a gear reduction to amplify the pulling power by allowing the engine to run a higher rpm.
To put it in perspective, the same log train pictured, could also be pulled by my S-4 switcher. My GP9 with added battery weight and factory tractionntires, could pull 7 or 8 four axle freight cars up the grade.
Rockwall Canyon Jeff said:
Hi Stacy,
Thanks for the compliment on the live steam shay. The answer about steam vs diesel is…no. In general, live steam model will rarely ever win in the traction or power race with electrics. The primary reason for live steam losing in traction is oily rails. The shay has the benefit of having only traction wheels, and having them in sort of a power truck arrangement which helps adhesion. Regarding power…most live steam engines have twin double acting cylinders that drive the wheels directly through the wheel cranks. At a certain grade, most traditional live steam engines will stall out. The shay has 3 double acting cylinders and a gear reduction to amplify the pulling power by allowing the engine to run a higher rpm.
To put it in perspective, the same log train pictured, could also be pulled by my S-4 switcher. My GP9 with added battery weight and factory tractionntires, could pull 7 or 8 four axle freight cars up the grade.
Fascinating stuff here.
It seems that in scale, the trains can do what their big cousins cannot do. At least that is what I am gathering.
I know diesels pretty well. UP’s Centennial locomotive remains the most powerful diesel locomotive ever created in this country. With 3,300 X 2 diesel engines, she could pull her weight and the weight of a heavy coal consist over mountain ranges out west that defy the laws of physics.
In scale though, it is interesting to see what these locomotives are capable of doing.
Stacey,
To add to the confusion, in prototype railroading narrow gauge lines frequently went past the 3% mark. The ruling grade on the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic between Chama and Cumbres Pass is in the 4% range. This was the Denver and Rio Grande Western mainline. Double and Tripple Heading were common sites when traffic was heavy. D&RGW was a common carrier and did attempt to follow traditional railroad protocols.
Logging lines and some mining railroads also used heavy grades, some it the 8% range. Keep in mind that logging and mining lines were not common carriers and therefore more flexible in their operations.
Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on perspective, physics do not scale well. On those lines, part of the reason prototype railroads began going to diesel/electrics was the smooth continuous power of the electric motors over the more pulsed power of the steam locos. There were other factors as well, but this one answers part of your question.
Bob C.
Thanks Bob.
I see what you mean about diesel versus steam power in the grade. Power is everything when trying to pull massive consist up grades above 3%. What you said about the logging and mining lines, I am only now reading about. It is really fascinating stuff. I could spend days, weeks, months reading about how this country was formed on the backs of railroad lines like the D&RG.
On my older indoor layout it had 4.5% to 5% grades, climbing 8" in approximately 12’ of run.
Most of my grades hover around 2% but I have one stretch that hits 3%. I don’t like to tax my engines so my trains usually run with 6-7 cars max. That is for both diesel and steam outline.
Getting up the grade is only half the battle going down the grade also puts a load on your loco gears with all that weight of the train pushing against them.
I think the LGB cog is recommended for a 10% grade. I did see a video somewhere and the guy had a cogger that climbed over the roof of his garage.
of course the real cog trains like the Mount Washington Cog Railway in NH can do more. They have an average grade of 25% with the max of 37% . It is a weird feeling when you are on that 37% and the conducter encourages passengers to stand up.
(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/capecodtodd/_forumfiles/cogengine9.jpg)
On the Black Hills Central the ruling grade is 6% up Tin Mill Hill. It is now a tourist line, but at one time it was an active line for the CB&Q and then the BN.
Cass has a pretty high grade for standard gauge - 11%. Great place to visit.
The Boeing Hill in Everett Washington is a 5.8% grade. Sea level to about 500’. Two locomotives are dedicated to the job and a longer range dynamic brake installed. Works down to 0 mph, where normal dynos die at 8mph. Brake pipe pressure at 110 psi, compared to 90psi regularly. Every car gets a brake, and skate before uncoupled. each track has at least 1 derail.
