Large Scale Central

Slow boat to China...?

General Discussion
#1

Hi all,

If the information is correct and 150 to 200 moulds (the numbers flactuate) left from LGB Nürnberg for “destination unknown”, then “things” will get interesting.

During my apprenticeship back in 1963 I assisted in taking inventory of every piece of tooling that was used in production. There could be some who would opine that the Swiss are even more anal than the Germans, well, I don’t know. :wink: :smiley:

Point is that if the tooling is “on a slow boat to China”, someone must have prepared precise shipping papers listing every piece (if only for insurance purposes). After giving this some thought my hunch is that all of the tooling is part of the collateral listed with the banks. I would be very surprised if the tooling inventory at LGB is any less thorough and accurate than that three months job back in 1963!
Having watched a few of these interesting occurences untangle over the years, I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a forensic audit coming down the pike. :wink: :slight_smile: :wink:

#2
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
If the information is correct and 150 to 200 moulds (the numbers flactuate) left from LGB Nürnberg for "destination unknown", then "things" will get interesting.
Is the information correct or isn´t it? Why does Mr. Mueller publish rants and rumours instead of known facts.? Is this a piece of Cold War against EPL/LGB ? I consider it a very primitive style of communication which contains no practical information.

This is not a personal attack, it is my private opinion. Stop speculations and cheap propaganda.
Everywhere ! Lay evidence on the table or simply shut up. It´s getting a PITA.

Have Fun

Juergen Zirner

#3

Before another thread gets out of hand, let me ask a couple questions, and point out a few things.

Who said this stuff is on a boat to China? Any proof, or is this just someone saying “I bet they are” ?

Yes, its spectulation, and maybe even a good guess, but this kind of shooting from the hip has, in the past pissed off more people than it has created constructive dialog. On the other hand, here’s as good a place as any to discuss it in a calm, adult manner. Lets all keep our heads together before this turns into another flamewar.

#4

To be frank I don’t know any thing about this but was wondering if these moulds were part of the sale of LBGofA and are going to start making their own products? spective at best

Ed

#5

I tend to agree with Ed. Those molds that “disappeared” are most likely those that are now under the ownership of G45…ie: the Genesis, Amfleet cars and US outline freight cars…and possibly the Mogul and Forney. Time will tell.

Warren

Disclaimer: This post is based on my opinion only and has no factual, provable background. Yet!

#6

Bob McCown said:
Before another thread gets out of hand, let me ask a couple questions, and point out a few things. Who said this stuff is on a boat to China? Any proof, or is this just someone saying “I bet they are” ? Yes, its spectulation, and maybe even a good guess, but this kind of shooting from the hip has, in the past pissed off more people than it has created constructive dialog. On the other hand, here’s as good a place as any to discuss it in a calm, adult manner. Lets all keep our heads together before this turns into another flamewar.

Bob, Here is part of the PDF for which Zirner provided a link here on LSC

Zirner said:
Hi, Here is some more to translate for the Swiss washerwoman. Dinglish or Germish will be OK. http://www.gartenbahn.de/pdf/Web%20GB%2055.pdf It appeared in a German Garden Railway Forum this morning. Have Fun Juergen Zirner

Please note: © ALL COPYRIGHTS “Die Garten Bahn” 5/2006 (Manfred Meliset) Including the reference to the incorrect issue 5/2005 (sic)

Garten Bahn 5/2006 PDF excerpt said:
Wie Sie in der aktuellen Ausgabe 5/2005 der Garten Bahn auf Seite 41 gelesen haben, versuchten wir am Do. 14.9. von maßgeblicher Seite Informationen zu erhalten. Am Montag 18.9. stellten wir Herrn Rolf Richter die nachstehenden Fragen. Eine Antwort blieb man uns schuldig! Unsere Fragen vom 18.9. – die auch heute noch aktuell sind: „Trifft es zu, dass - LGB - Händler seit 14 Tagen keine bestellte Ware mehr erhalten haben. - diese Händler keinerlei Information aus Nürnberg erhalten haben. - Zulieferfirmen unbezahlte Ware abgeholt haben. - der Verkauf von LGBoA nicht zustande gekommen ist, da der Geldtransfer aussteht. - Werkzeuge und Formen nach China verladen wurden. - Gehälter, die am 15.9. fällig gewesen sind, nicht überwiesen wurden. - dass die Hausbanken die Kredite gekündigt haben. Nachdem die Garten Bahn 5/2006 in der Nacht vom 18. auf den 19. September in Druck geht, bleibt mir leider wenig Zeit, um unseren Lesern und der uns verbundenen Händlerschaft eine Information über die aktuelle Situation bei LGB zu geben. Ich wäre Ihnen dankbar für eine baldige Stellungnahme zu den obigen Fragen.“

HJs translation said:
As you read on page 41 of the current issue 5/2005 (sic) of “Garten Bahn”, we attempted on Thursday Sept. 14 to obtain some information from the authoritative source. On Monday Sept. 18 we put the following questions to Rolf Richter. A reply is yet to be received. Our questions from 18.9. which are just as valid today. “Is it true that - LGB dealers haven’t been supplied with any goods for the past two weeks. - those dealers received no information from Nürnberg. - supplier retrieved goods and materials which hadn’t been paid for. - the sale of LGBoA was not completed, since the money transfer has yet to happen. - tooling and injection moulds were shipped to China - wages/salaries which were due on 15.9. had not been placed in the respective accounts. - that the banks called all outstanding loans. Since the “Garten Bahn” will go to press in the night from 18.9 to 19.9, this leaves me limited time to provide our readers and our advertising dealers with the up-to-date information concerning LGB. I would appreciate your earliest comments to the above questions.”

Yes, the questions are as valid today as they were last week. Since Zirner has (used to have??) a reasonably close working relationship with Mr. Meliset, he wouldn’t have posted the link to that PDF here on LSC if he was apprehensive about generating yet more discussion. Or would he??

Of course it is his option to do a second translation and post that here, just in case he figures I omitted something or added something. :wink: :slight_smile: :wink: :smiley: :smiley: For the LSC regulars, Happy Reading! PS for “improved clarity”- it appears at least one reader couldn’t make out the number of questions in the original German text - I updated the formatting of the German text.

#7
Warren Mumpower said:
I tend to agree with Ed. Those molds that "disappeared" are most likely those that are now under the ownership of G45....ie: the Genesis, Amfleet cars and US outline freight cars...and possibly the Mogul and Forney. Time will tell.

Warren

Disclaimer: This post is based on my opinion only and has no factual, provable background. Yet!


Warren,

Good thing you added the disclaimer. :smiley:

The moulds for the items you listed have been in China for a while. No need for shipping in those cases. :wink: :slight_smile: :wink:

#8

“- the sale of LGBoA was not completed, since the money transfer has yet to happen.”

Do I read this right? and all the implications of said statement???

#9
Victor Smith said:
"- the sale of LGBoA was not completed, since the money transfer has yet to happen."

Do I read this right? and all the implications of said statement???


Vic,

That wasn’t a statement!

That was one of the questions Manfred Meliset, publisher/owner of the “Garten Bahn” , put to Rolf Richter , personally liable partner of Ernst Paul Lehmann Patentwerk OHG.

Of course when one asks a question one usually has some background to base that question on. Or at least that’s how I believe it works. :wink: :slight_smile: :wink: :slight_smile:

#10

I assumed that since these items were being manufactured there. But my remark was more along the lines of ownership, rather than the physical molds. IMO the sticky part will be proving ownership of the molds. Do they belong to LGB, or do they belong to G45. If they belong to LGB the courts could force them to return them to Germany or face jail. If they are now owned by G45 let’s hope that someone can prove that they were paid for by G45. Somebody may still need a “Get out of jail” card. Yes, I’m putting a spin on things and realize that what really may come to pass could be entirely different. But I find this interesting to watch…and speculate on. The final outcome will probably have little affect on me and a worst case scenario would probably do me more good than bad…save me a bunch of money as I really don’t need any more trains.

But I want…I want…!!

This whole thing is about paperwork…which “i’s” are dotted and which “t’s” are crossed. Physical location of product, molds etc will play very little in the outcome.

Did I hear someone say PIKO?

Warren

#11

Mr. Mueller

Thank you for your translation. You omitted some details, but that´s OK.

Most readers will still be able, to read, that Mr. Meliset asked the LGB people seven questions, which were not answered.

This included the question about tooling and moulds. So please do not use the article from GARTENBAHN for evidence, regarding shipment of molds to China. If this is the only information you have, your statement is pure speculation out of thin air.

Most journalists are in close contact with the parties involved in the EPL/LGB case. Including banks, union, Chamber of Commerce etc… We keep an eye on the development. If we think, it is time to inform the readers with facts, we will do so.

Have Fun

Juergen Zirner

#12

Found the following on MLS - “None of the molds that were not already in China (i.e. Forney, 40’ Steel boxcars, 3080 passenger cars), have been sent to China. Future reproductions of current models may also possibly move to China, but this has nothing to do with the current proceedings. Thanks!”
James Tapper
Customer Service Manager
LGB of America

On another interesting aside, someone has done some heavy duty pruning this morning on this topic on Klambake"s GR forum…wonder what is going on there?

#13
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Of course when one asks a question one usually has some background to base that question on. Or at least that's how I believe it works. ;) :) ;) :)
Hi,

if it works this way, simply ask Mr. Mueller: "Is it true, you made up the story about the 150 - 200 moulds on the boat th China yourself? "

I prefer the Sherlock Holmes way. Deduct the impossible and the truth remains.

Have Fun

Juergen Zirner

#14

Zirner said:
Mr. Mueller Thank you for your translation. You omitted some details, but that´s OK.

Zirner, By all means feel free to correct any omissions or commissions in my translation. For clarification the original German text is “copy/paste” from the PDF. The formatting went a bit wonky, that’s why I repeated the link to the PDF. :wink: :slight_smile: Since there are only so many sources for information let me assure you that the ones you mentioned are on “our lists”. :wink: :slight_smile: :wink: PS Did you ever notice how carefully I phrase my posts or does that fail to register with you, since nuances in English are lost on you? :wink: :wink: And not a word about using “Garten Bahn” as my source, there are other sources. Of course it could be different in the Clowns and Magicians world, but for my taste that milieu is much too vague. Concise translations and accurate comparisons of “model” to prototype are much more my style. :wink: :slight_smile:

#15

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
PS Did you ever notice how carefully I phrase my posts or does that fail to register with you, since nuances in English are lost on you? :wink: :wink:

Mr Mueller, Nuances in your language are indeed difficult to detect. A greedy lawyer could drive you into poverty. Would you please tell the readers of this forum, if you have knowlede of shipment of 150 - 200 LGB/EPL moulds to China, or did you make up the story. You quoted the GARTENBAHN as your single source. I have the printed copy and the PDF on my desk. There is not a single word about shipment of 150 - 200 moulds to China mentioned in there… Regards Juergen Zirner

#16
Mik said:
Found the following on MLS - "None of the molds that were not already in China (i.e. Forney, 40' Steel boxcars, 3080 passenger cars), have been sent to China. Future reproductions of current models may also possibly move to China, but this has nothing to do with the current proceedings. Thanks!" James Tapper Customer Service Manager LGB of America

On another interesting aside, someone has done some heavy duty pruning this morning on this topic on Klambake"s GR forum…wonder what is going on there?


Mik,

That happens occasionally; in most cases it is an “oversight” by the “oversight department”. :wink: :slight_smile:

#17

Zirner said:

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
PS Did you ever notice how carefully I phrase my posts or does that fail to register with you, since nuances in English are lost on you? :wink: :wink:

Mr Mueller, Nuances in your language are indeed difficult to detect. A greedy lawyer could drive you into poverty. Would you please tell the readers of this forum, if you have knowlede of shipment of 150 - 200 LGB/EPL moulds to China, or did you make up the story. You quoted the GARTENBAHN as your single source. I have the printed copy and the PDF on my desk. There is not a single word about shipment of 150 - 200 moulds to China mentioned in there… Regards Juergen Zirner

Zirner,

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
If the information is correct and 150 to 200 moulds (the numbers flactuate) left from LGB Nürnberg for “destination unknown”, then “things” will get interesting.

If you have problems understanding the above sentence, I could translate that sentence into German for your better comprehension. OTOH quit clutching at straws! As a matter of fact I never quoted the “Garten Bahn” as my source at all in that first sentence or for that matter in my original post. :wink: :slight_smile: Anyone who can read will see that! And now… Back to graphics…

#18

ARGH! Can you guys just both shut the hell up until there are some FACTS released? All you’re doing is getting on each other’s nervers, and pissing off dozens (want to see the emails?) of our readers.

Grow up.

#19
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
If you have problems understanding the above sentence, I could translate that sentence into German for your better comprehension.

OTOH quit clutching at straws! As a matter of fact I never quoted the “Garten Bahn” as my source at all in that first sentence or for that matter in my original post. :wink: :slight_smile: Anyone who can read will see that!


Mueller:

I have no difficulties to understand simple English sentences. Even my knowledge of American slang is improving vastly within the few weeks I read in this forum.

Indeed, you did not quote GARTENBAHN (that the way it is spelled in German) in you original post.

Only when you were asked, if you made up the story yourself, you suddenly came up with “translations” to accuse GARTENBAHN to have written about it and you found it there.

I don´t know, how they call somebody in your part of the world who is making up stories to discriminate other peoples business. Over here we still believe in tar and feathers or some concrete boots plus expedition to the next river as a plausible argument.

Carry on offending, Mueller. Watch your nose. It either will grow until you stumble across it, or somebody will punch it.

Juergen Zirner

#20