Large Scale Central

Rivet Counters

The end of an exchange on one of the mailing lists I’m on about Rail/Marine operations:

— paste —

Person 1: The lighters are not really of any RR, I did them for fun. Last year I had a major back operation, so while out of work I built many many barges. Currently besides being in school becoming a pastry chef, I’m building a repair pier, just made up from many different RR’s and building designs, sometimes you have to just play.


Person 2: How refreshing to hear from a fellow railroader who believes we “just need to play” and have fun with our hobby, remembering why we started model railroading as a child.


Person 3: Bilgewater!!! We must count rivets, find schedules and timetables, be prototypically accurate, and expand the knowledge base of historical fact.

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Are you sure that conversation didn’t take place here??? :stuck_out_tongue:

I know this will probably start a shooting war … .but …

I don’t think the two are mutualy exclusive.

You can count rivets, and ensure that appropriate parts and systems are modeled … you can make a plausible operating scene, and operate prototypically, and not have a “prototype railroad” per se.

For example, just because the SP Narrow Gauge was the only line to use 50 ton end cab switchers doesn’t mean they COULDN’T have been reasonably used on the ET&WNC, the D&RGW, or the EBT, all of which survived well into the diesel era… and could have survived longer than they did with a little bit of creative revision of history. The model is technically correct, if a bit imaginative in paint scheme, and would have been appropriate for use on such a line… so modeling what “could have happened” seems reasonable. That’s different from a lot of ways to “play with trains” that don’t require the attention to detail in the making of the models or their operation to be “accepted practice” for a railroad of the type being ‘imagined.’

There is another school of model railroading that says that everything must be correct not only in model detail but in place and time … in other words, a perfectly accurate model of a New Haven RS-3 must not only have every bolt and weld in the right place, and the right shade of paint, but that it must be in a scene where the real RS-3 was, at a particular time on a particular date. So, if the 529 didn’t happen to be in Essex on July 4th 1954, and you model that day and time, your model is no good even if a photo of your model could be confused with the real thing. This is another EQUALLY ACCEPTABLE way of playing with trains … with a different focus.

For me, the plausibility of the railroad and the detail of the models and operations are the part I like best to model. Having been involved with “real” trains it allows me the “form and feel” of what I’ve always wanted to do and never could. That there never really was a “Slate Creek Railway” really matters very little to me … I try to build what “could have been” given a bit more ideal conditions, and some terrain that probably doesn’t exist exactly as I imagine it.

If that means I’m not modeling anything per se … I guess I’m just playing with toy trains… but they look a damn bit better than many I’ve seen, and behave a lot more like the real thing too.

Matthew (OV)

My prototype is the Jackson and Burke Railroad. I challenge anyone to show me where I have failed to adhere to the prototype. :wink:

Bruce Chandler said:
My prototype is the Jackson and Burke Railroad. I challenge anyone to show me where I have failed to adhere to the prototype. ;)
You're behaving like lots of prototypical railroads. You don't even pay your employees! (cross-reference another thread)

I pay EVERY employee. But, I do get the occasional volunteer that is just so enamored with operations that they are pleased to give their own time freely. :wink:

The SCRY pays pretty well, all things considered … but actually availing onesself of the wages beyond the Pizza rations might technically violate Rule G …

From running a Thomas train through the flowers with Goofy and Micky in the gondola to " Person 3: Bilgewater!!! We must count rivets, find schedules and timetables, be prototypically accurate, and expand the knowledge base of historical fact. " that is the reality of this hobby. If either of those approaches really bother you, the best thing you can do is SHUT YOUR MOUTH and seek out other like minded modelers who share your vision of how it’s supposed to be done.

I just doubled the salaries of all employees of the WI&M!

2 X $0 = ummmmmm $0.

Walter is close. The prob really isn’t how you play with your toy trains, but when you start telling others that they should or even must do it whatever way… And that goes for folks at both ends, and even a few in the middle. That’s why some of the “discussions” end up nearly in wingnut politics land.

The thing is, just like politics, everybody is ‘right’ when it comes to themselves, and ‘wrong’ when they try to push it off on somebody else. AND a lot of folks are needlessly over defensive, AND a lot of folks are thoughtlessly offensive… The solution, of course, is to respect folks and their right to have their own opinion, even if you disagree — a pretty much forgotten courtesy in our society.

IMO, You probably don’t need rivets unless the glue won’t hold :stuck_out_tongue:

My prototype is in my mind… Let someone tell me, that i’m wrong and be able to prove it… :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Andy Clarke said:
My prototype is in my mind.... Let someone tell me, that i'm wrong and be able to prove it... :) :) :)
So, if your prototype is [b]IN[/b] your mind and you are [b]OUT[/b] of your mind, what does that mean ???

Like others, my prototype never existed do everything is correct.

Jon Radder said:
Andy Clarke said:
My prototype is in my mind.... Let someone tell me, that i'm wrong and be able to prove it... :) :) :)
So, if your prototype is [b]IN[/b] your mind and you are [b]OUT[/b] of your mind, what does that mean ???
Jon, it means.. ""Welcome to my Wacky World"".... :)

I dont know about you guys but everything on my RR is prototypical and 100% accurate in detail. I didnt even miss a rivet. They are all their.

I don’t count rivets and just go roundy round. I have also been known to allow my employees too operate intoxicated.

this is getting riveting to say the least. :smiley:

I tell everyone that has a critical comment about any of my projects, motorcycle building, model railroading, woodworking, landscaping, etc. etc.

“Thank you for your comment. When you build your motorcycle/railroad/entertainment center you should build it that way.”

Bob McCown said:
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Person 3: Bilgewater!!! We must count rivets, find schedules and timetables, be prototypically accurate, and expand the knowledge base of historical fact.

— end paste —


Yeah all wedged neatly between the furnace and the waterheater in your basement. :wink:

I think this guy was just being a joker but Jeezuz, I have run afoul of the dread RC many times in the past in HO. What would a teethgrinding RC make of my little circle of pizza madness? Everything about it is Anti-rivetcounter, No known prototype for layout, cars locos buildings I mean just everything! they would be cackling up hairballs the size of sofa cushions I guess! :open_mouth:

If you like proto heavy modeling thats fine, but when some of these guys insist on pushing their clenched sphincter so tight they can walk with $1.50 in pennies gripped between their other cheeks view of the modeling universe, that just takes all the fun out of whats still essentially playing with TOY trains, even highly detailed dreadfully expensive they are still in essence toys.

Thats why I liked LS when I started, anything went. I have noticed its gotten alot tighter over the years, guys like me and the stuff we model are becoming displaced more and more in favor of the proto heavy modelers, oh well times change. :wink:

Vic, do what I do. If they hate it that much, then tell them that they can buy it and re-make it to their heart’s content… at YOUR price.

Oh, and…the bigger the jerk, the higher the price! :smiley:

Works for models, websites, even your house. For some reason most won’t back up their opinion with their wallet.

I don’t count rivets, but my friends say I am anal retentive…
Working glad hands. (Well sorta–Bruce’s magnet idea).
I can’t wait to weather the crap out of any shiny new piece of rolling stock.
Things like that.
But no counting! Everything on my layout is prototypical for my railroad.
The other day a Shay was pulling a string of passenger cars…prototypical.
and so on.