Large Scale Central

Response to Marc Horovitz

We incorporated our Railroad into our garden. I am an avid gardener with a horticultural background. Our yard is an extension of our indoor living space. The plants and the railroad are the “furniture” of the yard. The railroad would be very boring without the plants to enhance the experience.

I think the photo says it all about plantings and trains and how they can enhance each other. Sunset Magazine would be a a great way to promote Garden Railways.

I think you all hit the main points, especially Pete Gary and Wendell. Rather than pile on with more of the same let me propose a course of action.

We are gifted with several talented and published authors on this forum. Have any of you submitted articles to garden magazines rather than railroad magazines? Have you had any success? Perhaps those with an existing relationship with GR mag could persuade them to pursue some joint article / cross promotion on this subject with their horticultural counter parts.

Production follows money and money follows the market, we must therefore broaden the market. My $.05 as my rates are higher than Gary’s.

“…As I have harped previously, there appears NO memorable promotion of the hobby in photo-story-driven garden magazines…”

A decade ago one of the Cdn gardening mags actually had done an article on a regional GR. Also another time, there was a article about the local horticultural society annual tour involving a G-railway infused backyard .

One of the things I do to try and promote the crossover btwn GR and Gardening ! Whenever I spot on a magazine rack GardenRailway mag I move the pile over, and integrate (full-view) into the ‘garden’ section of mags !

Also if they have one of those metal add-on racks, labelled topchoice/pick of the day. I move GR into it. If there is no GR available, but say the MR mag i slip it into the rack. :slight_smile:

doug c

I think the crash and burn of the orignal LGB, followed by Aristocraft did lots of damage to the hobby. LGB is back but to me its never fully regained its foothold here in the states. And what little they do offer is at much higher prices than the old “Lehmann” company did. I agree that more exposure will help, so will good and solid starter sets. The gold standard starter set used to be the common LGB Stainz with short train, be it the Euro version of one of the Americanized versions. Even the older Kalmazoo sets were a good entry point to the hobby. Solid drives with basic detailing. Now we want brass level detailing, then complain at the price and how fragile they are. Bring back the old Kalamazoo style starter sets, a small 4-4-0 or 0-4-0, with a short freight or passenger train, brass track and power pack. I also agree that Marc needs to do a better service to promoting the Garden aspect, be the layout small or large. With a focus on what can be done in a small space, espicaly with the perceived high cost to the hobby. Large layout = lots of money spent is what I see. My little line was built over a couple of years, and is still evolving as I get more buildings or different trains. I could do an elevated line, easier on my back when running a live steamer. But then its just another layout on benchwork, just outside. An outdoor railway needs to be in the garden, be it a raised garden flower bed or ground level. Everywhere I post pics of my layout, I get positive responces, espicaly from non model railroaders over on the forums that are for others with Asperger’s Syndrome or Autism. We need to regain some of the “Magic” of the past, some of what LGB and Kalamazoo promoted, colorfull trains in the garden at a modest cost. Hartland has most of that, just not in set form. I would love to see them bring back the 4-4-0 starter sets, just using thier current engine. But I fear the cost would be to high.

Heartland does have 2 sets. Although the mining set doesn’t appear to come with track.

The army set (pictured) is $100

USA has a starter set

Including track and transformer, but the MSRP is $630

And Bachmann has their big hauler sets, and they usually run less then $300

Then there is Piko, and their starter sets from just under $300 to over $500

And LGB still has starter sets, from about $310 to $350

So the sets are available, and the costs aren’t too extreme, but where does someone go to see these sets? So I am back to what has been said several times in this thread, and in other threads. These sets need to be marketed to garden centers, home centers and other stores. That way the non train people could become informed that these things actually exist, and we could bring some non train people into the hobby.

I like what Wendell is saying. It took me a bit, because I was reading with the glasses of an outdoor model railroader. But what I think I’m hearing is that there are vast numbers of gardeners – no railroads, just gardens. But to get more enjoyment from their creations, they could, and should, be encouraged toward “animation” (as Wendell put it). I think lighting is just as key (Wendell gave some mention to that). Between the two, one might truly transform their garden.

Hence, garden railroads should be regularly talked up in gardening magazines, as a natural extension of the gardening experience. At least, that’s what I received from Wendell’s posts; and I think it’s a great point. If that could be done, who knows how many newcomers to the hobby there would be, from the garden side.

Cliff

Cliff and all:

Correct, the conclusion is the “garden” aspect has NOT been marketed by those who make and sell. The garden is easily more than just a location for a model railroad just as it is more than a place for solar lighting, a fountain, a pond with koi, wind chimes, and a large reflective sphere. Gardens can be animated by a train. A That’s is precisely how our family got into the hobby of GARDEN railroading. The manufacturers can have cups of sorrow about the poor sales and lack of new products while making little effort to talk to those who have the essential element already in place: Their garden!

Granted, those of us who have no financial interest in the hobby can send in pictorials featuring the garden and views of animating trains. But wait! What kind of financial relationship is obviously available to mfg.'s advertising a starter set in a garden setting in a garden-focused magazine. Mfg.s can provide the photos and the articles to be eventually be coincidental to their ad in any given garden magazine issue. Treat the idea of garden animation by a train as new. My guess is 99% of the population have NO idea about having a train running a loop or two in their yard – along with the opportunity to join a garden group.

Actually I feel the lawsuit that the original LGB and Aristocraft got into took money that could have been used to grow the hobby instead used to pay lawyers.

Just my opinion.

LAO

Mike Toney said:

I think the crash and burn of the orignal LGB, followed by Aristocraft did lots of damage to the hobby. LGB is back but to me its never fully regained its foothold here in the states. And what little they do offer is at much higher prices than the old “Lehmann” company did. I agree that more exposure will help, so will good and solid starter sets. The gold standard starter set used to be the common LGB Stainz with short train, be it the Euro version of one of the Americanized versions. Even the older Kalmazoo sets were a good entry point to the hobby. Solid drives with basic detailing. Now we want brass level detailing, then complain at the price and how fragile they are. Bring back the old Kalamazoo style starter sets, a small 4-4-0 or 0-4-0, with a short freight or passenger train, brass track and power pack. I also agree that Marc needs to do a better service to promoting the Garden aspect, be the layout small or large. With a focus on what can be done in a small space, espicaly with the perceived high cost to the hobby. Large layout = lots of money spent is what I see. My little line was built over a couple of years, and is still evolving as I get more buildings or different trains. I could do an elevated line, easier on my back when running a live steamer. But then its just another layout on benchwork, just outside. An outdoor railway needs to be in the garden, be it a raised garden flower bed or ground level. Everywhere I post pics of my layout, I get positive responces, espicaly from non model railroaders over on the forums that are for others with Asperger’s Syndrome or Autism. We need to regain some of the “Magic” of the past, some of what LGB and Kalamazoo promoted, colorfull trains in the garden at a modest cost. Hartland has most of that, just not in set form. I would love to see them bring back the 4-4-0 starter sets, just using thier current engine. But I fear the cost would be to high.

Wendell, yea, I agree. When I mention that I have a garden railroad, most folks have no idea what I am talking about. Some people think I am talking about ride on trains. They have no idea that there is a train size between their dad’s (or gram-pa’s) Lionel and ride on stuff.

If you want exposure in the gardening mags, there’s only two ways to get it:

  1. A manufacturer or dealer buys ad space in a gardening magazine.

  2. A hobbyist who is heavily into the gardening side of things writes up an article and submits it to a gardening magazine.

Observation:

The hobby of “Gardening” itself is fading, just like other hobbies.

More and more people with little time, outside of working hours, commute time, golf hours, TV time, and time at the gym, or country club. To say nothing of the few hours left to transport their children to whatever competitive sports programme is in trend at the time.

They pay to have whatever space they might have for a garden, maintained by some maintenance company, staffed by a few unknowing, or caring lawn mower drivers. The children are seldom introduced to hobbies such as the ones a few of us old farts remember, and even if they were, their peer pressure limits their interest.

Space is another problem. The great “New World” is offering the average new family only few options for living accommodation. The apartment, and the condominium, are the new wave. There is no space for a “Garden”, as we know it. High density living is the new trend. The days of the single family home on a nice lot, are doomed, by cost, and the lack of interest or time to maintain it. Then the latest wave of home owners, are even having trouble knowing how to change a light bulb…

Grand parents, are often seen as the ones that try to attract the children towards the “Train set” they remember from their youth, but never had. If the grand parents developed the hobby for themselves, and along the way offered to share their passion with the grand children, it would do more good, than the disappointment of watching the children fading from interest through the boredom of watching a train go round and round…soon asking “What else does it do ?”…next month the stuff is in a garage sale, or in the dumpster.

What is the answer to the slow death of hobbies, as we knew them ? That is the million dollar question…

The whole World is changing…can the hobbies change with it…I think not, as the so called “Quality of life” is not really improving; it’s just getting more competitive, and expensive.

Someone may have other observations, of less doom and gloom, but let’s face reality, not just dreams…

Fred Mills

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I think if a gardener could go to the big box store, buy a train set, bring it home and plunk it down in the garden and go it might be a boon to the hobby. But…it needs to reliable and work out the box, this seemed to be the case with the early LGB, others, not so much. And then…what do you mean I need to clean the track before it will run, I can’t leave it out all the time ? It requires maintenance ? Manufacturer A’s equipment won’t couple to manufacturer B’s equipment ? I think I’ll go back to my gnomes ! I oft times wonder how many gardeners just gave it up after the first year when corrosion ended electrical continuity of the track or dirt fouled the mechanisms of the locomotives or a dozen other things that us diehards put up with on a day to day basis that would soon discourage most non technically or mechanically minded gardeners.

Today we are fighting a battle to get more people into garden railroading. But here is what we are up against.

If you had $300-$500 to spend, would you buy a starter set or a new smart phone?

The smart phone would give you instant gratification, the starter set would require a lot of work.

That is what we are up against in the 21st century.

Joining a club today is not giving new people enough to keep them interested, again the instant gratification is not there.

This is just my opinion.

I agree with Gary about the maintenance issue.

To me a garden railroad is not a railroad without a garden.

I used to run track power, but to much work.

Now I run a little battery powered, but mostly live steam.

There is nothing better then to see the plumes of steam darting between all the colored flowers.(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cool.gif)

I work in real estate and whenever I go to see a house I check out the backyard just in case there is a RR out there and often there is a nice garden but no trains. People in my area have lots of money and time since most are retired but the RR hobby is not big and gives way to boats, fishing and golf etc…

A few of the local garden centers used to sell large scale but slowly got out of it. The most recent was due to price issues. I even mentioned this to the manager that he had a Bachmann engine in the showcase with a price of over $400 on it and I could buy it online for just over $100. He wasn’t happy they stopped selling the large scale but they still sell the smaller scales. I like to support local business but come on.

Large scale trains take up a lot of valuable space in any shop and seldom does a store have what people are looking for.

The trouble with the box stores like Lowes selling sets would be the price of a quality one and then the not so good ones that people would take a chance on usually around Christmas that often break down quickly.

Setting up a RR outdoors is an expensive and time consuming investment. We call it a labor of love. We like trains and we like to tinker and those 2 traits do not excite the up and coming kids.

It would be novel for a garden magazine to dedicate a few pages to a garden RR.

The smart phone would give you instant gratification, the starter set would require a lot of work.”

The majority go for the trendy smart(ie)phones, that also only last maybe a couple yrs.

A minority acquire a G-gauge starter set, which can last for almost forever !

doug c

first of all, what do we know about the gardening hobby?

as far as i can see it should be on the downwards slope as well.

just look around. in the first world the average people have less and lesser living space avayable. railroading and gardening in a condo???

at best some flowerpots on the windowsill and a N or even Z layout under the bed…

or houses in modern housing projects? you can fit a patio OR a pool into the “garden-space”

and so on…

fact is, that the average population, worldwide, has sinking amounts of “free” money. but there are more and more possible hobbies.

so, more hobbies competing for less money.

do you remember wooden rocking horses? or even these horseheads on a stick, children used to ride through the garden? they went the way of the Dodo bird. why? because kids don’t see grown-ups on horseback any more. so they don’t want to ride.

do kids of today see trains or even trams? most do not.

what they see is soldiers, dinos, comics and zombies on tv and electronics everywhere. and that is, what they want.

and their parents “want” to keep up with the half dozen of monthly rates they have for their multiple debts.

well, to shorten my rant, in my eyes our hobby can not grow. new additions, like 3 d printing can draw it out somewhat, but our providers will go belly-up one by one, while we live on second hand items from deceased modelers and do-it-your-selfing of components.

that is sad. but that is, how it is.

edit: and, most of us are soo old, that we can give a $h*t about this.

I see no evidence around here that gardening is either in decline, or that they’re being maintained by some external company. Most of my neighbors have gardens that they maintain themselves. Guy across the street has a company mow his lawn, but he and his wife are always outside in the gardens. Family, too.

Wendell Hanks said:

Simply, the word “GARDEN”. As I have harped previously, there appears NO memorable promotion of the hobby in photo-story-driven garden magazines. Is there evidence that our well photographed gardens are denied publication by garden magazines? Where are the photo stories showing a garden in full bloom, large or small – even if just animated with a simple dog bone of track?

Marc gets kudos for putting into summary the problem of us being a model railroad hobby. Now, go one step further and encourage the remaining manufacturers not to ignore what makes garden railroading unique: Gardens. What is promotionally missing is enlisting the huge parade of garden pictorial magazines to show what animating a garden with track and a train looks like.

Meanwhile don’t forget to proclaim, honest, these garden animators can stay outside.

Wendell

You can’t blame “Garden Magazines” for not promoting the garden railways hobby if they are not in touch with the hobby. Therefore, you can’t blame the manufactures for not advertizing in these other magazines because they see no market there, if that is what this post is getting at.

Maybe the garden railroaders need to send their stories/photos to “Garden Magazines” so they can see what they’ve been missing out on. Maybe we need to take the first step.

We’ve been featured in the Orange County Home Magazine as well as on garden tours and are always a hit and inspiration.