Large Scale Central

Republicans and oil

General Discussion
#21

If you cannot get rid of the crooks in any country, that country will never have a fair and just society.

The trick is going to be to start listening to the eminent people in this World and not the media. Most “news” is biased and usually comes with some form of vested interest.
No matter what the outcome, the media should only tell the truth. Not merely act as the mouthpiece of anyone who could pay for it.
Or even worse, have a media blindly led by men of so called virtue, who told lies.
That happens in the UK and Australia as well.
Way too many lying politicians.

How to stop it.
That will take a groundswell of community concern at the lowest council levels where it starts.
You know!!! Land developer needs approval for something that should not be built but is, because negotiable tender changed hands. Ahhh!!! but, nudge nudge, wink wink, he, the land developer or other vested interest, is really a nice guy because he supports the local whatever.

Graft and corruption has be struck down.
If it isn’t, Democracy as we know it will end.

#22

Sorry folks but even if you did grant open access to every place in North America to drill for oil, I still firmly believe the oil companies would simply sit on those sites or at most do only minimal test drillings for years if not decades to come.

Why? because they have absolutely no reason to want to lower prices, why would they want to cut there own profit marging by lowering oil prices? Even at todays high prices causing lower oil usage, that same oil is still being sold for a much price, so even with lower demand they are still raking in huge profits, all without spending the multi-millions of dollars that opening these new resources up to producion would require.

Even the oil companies are beginning to realize that oil has a limited future, some are beginning to create inroads into wind, solar power and other alternate resources, why, because even they can see that there a shift occuring, as more people grow concerned about global warming they want to make the shift away from oil and gas, so the oil companies see there now a demand for alternatives, and where theres demand, theres money to be made, there not stupid, they dont “hate” alternate energy, they would happily chuck every oil well on earth if they could make higher profits with cold fusion, they are in business to make money and will happily embrace any new technology that gives them that profit.

#23

Victor:

You are ignoring the fact that much of the current run up in oil prices was due to the actions of trading speculators who have captured a significant percentage of the world supply and then set about to control the price. It appears that it was not the doing of the oil companies. The traders are the ones who are raking in profits . . . for doing nothing.

I’m relatively certain the oil companies are not happy with the current slow down in sales that is driven in large part by the high costs of the starting material.

As to the oil companies becoming involved in alternate energy, that is really not late breaking news. As just one example, in 1980 British Petroleum began photovoltaic cell manufacturing. They have expanded that single enterprise to global proportions, with production facilities in the U.S., Spain, Australia, and India. I know this because I have been a consultant to various BP Solar suppliers and production equipment initiatives over the last 25 or so years. Other oil companies such as Exxon and Standard Oil have similar alternative energy initiatives that extend back as much as 30 years. It’s just that BP Solar has been one of the most aggressive and successful at it. And yes, these “oil” companies, like all other companies are trying to make a profit. That’s what businesses try to do.

Happy RRing,

Jerry

#24

Jerry,
At the start of the tremendous increase in oil prices…it was indeed the traders making the money.
However, as time passes the oil companies become the beneficiary. They are not selling oil at $35 a barrel.
Vic is correct. They have no incentive to lower prices. If we don’t continue to reduce demand, prices will go up again. They found that $4.00 gas was not acceptable to the US public. We have to show them that $3.00-$3.50 is not acceptable either.

They also have no incentive to drill stateside. They can drill higher production wells elsewhere at less cost.
These are no longer American companies. There is no more Standard Oil.
T.Boone is right. We have 3% of the worlds known reserves(not talking shale here) and use 40% of the oil. Time to think outside of the box.
The oil companies aren’t going to fix this for us.
Ralph

#25
Joe Satnik said:
Price controls of the 1970's put the market out of whack... thus the shortages and long lines at the gas pumps.

The (economics of a free) oil market will work until the last cup of oil is pumped out of the ground, and if no controls are put on it, there will never be a shortage.

Why? What’s oil used for? Energy for transportation, lubrication, plastics and fabrics, etc. Someone will invent substitutes for those purposes (eg “synthetic oil” for lubrication) when the price of oil gets high enough to make use of the substitute cheaper.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik


I am not, and never have been the least bit in favor of any kind of price controls on anything. The point I was making was that there are lots of people around the world who will stand on our air hose until we die of asphyxiation.

Some of these people and governments claim to be our friends (the Swiss for example) and some would truly like to see us and our culture annihilated (as in most of the Arab nations). We need to recognize these threats, bellicose, financial or other, and act upon them accordingly.

Along with your suggestions that alternative technologies could reduce the requirements for oil, working to develop all possible domestic sources of energy could possibly let us thumb our collective noses at the foreigners who are robbing our economy and plotting our demise.

Happy RRing,

Jerry

#26
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Ralph Berg said:
.................

Leaches sucking off the top and providing nothing in return but a way for the very wealthy to “get a piece” of everything.
Ralph


Yeah, what we need is a revolution. :slight_smile: :wink:

So HJ, your saying the Canadians need to start a revolution? Why?

#27

I wrote: …Jamie Lee Curtis in liederhosen and blond pigtails…

Mark Verbrugge replied: Oh, I’m sorry, where you guy’s talking about something?

Yes we were: Trains, fake Rastafarians, drunken priests, and gorillas.

Unless, of course, were not allowed to talk about “trains” in the “Off-Topic” section.

Skip ahead to 1:30 in the following video.

I found an English version of a very similar clip yesterday, couldn’t find it today, sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG2wGAf4VJ8&feature=related

(from the movie “Trading Places”)

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

#28

Ric Golding said:

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

Ralph Berg said:
… Leaches sucking off the top and providing nothing in return but a way for the very wealthy to “get a piece” of everything. Ralph

Yeah, what we need is a revolution. :slight_smile: :wink:

So HJ, your saying the Canadians need to start a revolution? Why?

No, no, we leave the revolutions to those with experience, seems to leave a more lasting impression. And if your last go around is the yardstick, chances are a few more of the reasonable people will be bee-lining it to the GWN. :wink: :slight_smile: I even have the appropriate add-on question on the immigration application: “Have you ever voted for a Bush or someone remotely similar?” :lol: :lol:

(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/teufel/devil-smiley-023.gif)

#29

…grinning…

#30
Ralph Berg said:
There is no more Standard Oil.
I meant "Chevron." I guess continuing to call it "Standard Oil" is a definite sign of my advancing age. In any event, they have invested and continue to invest significant amounts in alternative energy projects.
Ralph Berg said:
T.Boone is right. We have 3% of the worlds known reserves(not talking shale here) and use 40% of the oil. Time to think outside of the box.
As I have previously written, I am highly in favor of the Pickens' Plan. But I also firmly believe there needs to be wide ranging energy initiatives, with every available source of energy explored. As you wrote, "Time to think outside the box."

In the early 1980s I designed and built a portable alcohol plant that converted seed watermelon waste into alcohol fuel. Although the machine worked very well, there wasn’t much market for fuel alcohol, and the watermelon farmers who could use the alcohol in their trucks and farm equipment could purchase gasoline for about the same price as compared to the alternate fuel. I was recently asked to re-examine the portable alcohol plant concept, but came to the conclusion that its applications are pretty limited. Still, if one has the feed stock available and a somewhat local use, along with soaring gasoline prices, it could make sense.

Ralph Berg said:
The oil companies aren't going to fix this for us. Ralph
Absolutely true, but these (publicly traded) "oil companies" are not necessarily the great villains they are made out to be. And the continuous harping about the profits they make is just ridiculous. Their profit margins are actually on the low side of the average of all major corporations. I'm certainly not a defender of large corporations, and especially the oil companies, but that system has worked pretty well for 150 years. When it doesn't work, they will be out of business.

Happy RRing

Jerry

#31

"Oil companies are not necessarily the great villains they are made out to be. And the continuous harping about the profits they make is just ridiculous. Their profit margins are actually on the low side of the average of all major corporations. "

The great villains in all of this are governments, both State and Federal, that are enjoying the increased tax profits they have made with the price of oil and gasolene going up. I don’t believe you’ll ever hear them admit or complain about their windfall.

#32

I don’t think the oil companies are villains. I’m just realistic. They are enjoying record prices on their product. They certainly are not going to take any action that might lower prices.
If we want them to get serious about drilling in the US…we will have to employ some type of leverage.
Either incentives…which would be very expensive.
Or some type of legislation that would require a certain percentage of domestic oil is used. Start at current levels and increase percentages yearly.
Increased use of alternatives would help meet the required percentages.
Ralph

#33

I would think tax incentives for alternate energy installations would be a significant start, along with continuing federally supported research and development by universities and private institutes.

But it seems our politicians can’t even keep the present incentives going. Congress is busy letting the tax incentives on solar installations expire. The news in the industry is that the planning, design and purchasing for many projects scheduled for 2009 and beyond are on hold due to the uncertainties regarding the tax credits. How long will it take to get these projects back on track?

That stupid situation covers one third of our national energy policy, with another third devoted to making alcohol out of the corn we previously used to make bread, and increasingly, tortillas. Our politicians, driven by graft money from ADM, have committed a large fraud in passing the alcohol fuel mandate. One doesn’t have to read very far to see that there is wide spread agreement that this was a bad decision. I don’t see anything suggesting that it will be overturned.

The final third of our current energy policy seems to be a series of arguments over price controls, tapping the national petroleum reserve, tax relief to selected groups of individuals, election year payoff promises to the ‘less fortunate,’ etc., etc., etc. In my opinion, all of these proposals would either reduce the supply of gasoline, or increase the use of gasoline, or in most cases do both while the politicos are seen to be doing something . . . anything. Some energy policy!

Our local, vocal liberal super-majority says that we have to prevent drilling to develop oil along the west coast in order to save the environment. Among other things, they are also fighting wave power research along the north coast, and power transmission lines to enable the government mandated alternative energy generated at solar plants in our southern CA deserts from being transmitted to the coastal cities where it would be used. I translate most all of this as a ‘not in my backyard’ sentiment. Just typical of the elitism that pervades much of the liberal thinking in the U.S.

There are lots of alternate energy sources out there. We just need the freedom, coupled with some small incentives to develop them.

Happy RRing,

Jerry

#34

The incentives will come, without government meddling, from the private sector when and if alternative energy sources become feasible and cost competitive with the current sources. The government isn’t going to supply the solutions, the free market will do that. Always has, always will!

#35

Ken:

You are right, but in our totally over-taxed world, short-term lessening of the taxes for developing technologies or new energy efficient installations is not a very big give away. The potential benefits are quicker development of energy alternatives and a larger tax revenue stream in the mid-term future. The “free market” is currently hindered by taxes that are put on almost everything just to produce a revenue stream for the government, so properly done tax incentives are really just enhancing the free market concept.

Our California state government actually works hard to provide dis-incentives for development and furtherance of markets. This is done through fees, taxation and double taxation on so many things.

Here in Californiia, we don’t have the 2008 state budget that is required by law to be passed by June 30 of each year, and our state agencies are living on credit, while the governor has signed a bill requiring state workers to be paid only federal minimum wage. No end in sight for this budget crisis.

But in the interim, our state legislators have enough spare time to produce a bill requiring that all stores charge for any bag (paper or plastic) they provide for your groceries or other goods. The proposed fee would be $.25 for the first bag, $.50 for the second bag, with a cap on the number of bags a person can get. This new tax has a provision for the store to get ~$.05 of the fee, with the rest going to the state.

This new tax is done under the guise of being good for the environment, but it’s plainly just a new revenue stream for our state legislators to use as they see fit. It will eliminate a store directly rewarding the purchaser who brings their own bags (as Barbara & I usually do), while really doing nothing for the environment. In fact, it would seem that it would be in the store’s interest to ‘sell’ you a state mandated bag rather than encourage you to bring your own. Talk about a “free market solution!”

I truly live in the land of fruits and nuts!

Happy RRing,

Jerry

#36
Ken Brunt said:
The incentives will come, without government meddling, from the private sector when and if alternative energy sources become feasible and cost competitive with the current sources. The government isn't going to supply the solutions, the free market will do that. Always has, always will!
No, we need to meddle. Especially to prod the oil companies into drilling in the US. It is easier to pull it out of the ground elsewhere. If we keep sending all our money to the Middle East......we'll be working for them and our children and grandchildren will be renting their homes from them. Ralph
#37

Prod them??? Letting them would be nice, for a change.

#38

That word didn’t sit well with me, either.

It is amazing how it is thought that continued pressure on companies is never a consideration as to why they leave the United States and take their business to some island in the Caribbean and sell their product on the World market, eliminating the United States as a customer.

We live with this daily, trying to do business in the State of Illinois. It is just a little difficult to move a marina.

#39
Ric Golding said:
That word didn't sit well with me, either.

It is amazing how it is thought that continued pressure on companies is never a consideration as to why they leave the United States and take their business to some island in the Caribbean and sell their product on the World market, eliminating the United States as a customer.

We live with this daily, trying to do business in the State of Illinois. It is just a little difficult to move a marina.


You could always move it offshore! :lol:

I remember a billboard on the outskirts of Seattle, “Last one out, turn off the lights.” :smiley:

Politicians never learn.

#40
Ric Golding said:
That word didn't sit well with me, either.

It is amazing how it is thought that continued pressure on companies is never a consideration as to why they leave the United States and take their business to some island in the Caribbean and sell their product on the World market, eliminating the United States as a customer.

We live with this daily, trying to do business in the State of Illinois. It is just a little difficult to move a marina.


Prod you have a problem with? Did I say force?

Let the oil companies do what they want and we will soon be sending one trillion dollars a year to the Middle East.
Why drill here…even offshore…when for the same money you can have higher yielding wells elsewhere?

Usually the reasons companies leave the US is for cheap labor and taxes. In other words…Greed.

Greed. The same reason gas jumped 20 cents today. They are speculating the hurricane “might” do some damage.We are already paying more for something that may not happen. Not to mention the very small percentage these rigs contribute to oil production. We are already paying 5% extra in advance of the storm. I seriously doubt these rigs contribute 5% of the world’s daily production.
Ralph