David,
using your thinking, then if one is to disagree with creation science then that defines a person as agnostic. As stated previously, creation/fiction, one and the same. I believe that evolution amplifies faith and respect for a supreme being. Making an absurd statement that dates creation at a precise point in time is superfluous to one’s faith. It happpened, period, the exact time is not a matter of faith and yet is held in high esteem by creationists. Genesis makes absurd statements as to the ages of the characters in the bible and yet you accept these as accurate, as you do your point of creation. Does this exactness put some form of obsession with details and not faith based?
Ralph Berg said:Hans-Joerg Mueller said:Ralph Berg said:Ralph,
HJ, You have faith. You have faith that you are correct. You have no facts or evidence. RalphLet me put it this way, Grimm and Andersen are the fairy tales I like and I don’t put high expectations in them, I just like them.
Even if the Bible is a fairy tale…there are many other religions not based on the Bible.
You have formed a conclusion…without doing the research.
Ralph
My conclusion: they are all fairy tales, written or handed down through the ages by man. The distinguishing factor of fairy tales is: entertainment value.
You have based your opinion on your knowledge of one religion, in modern times.
As I said before…not very scientific.
The religions can be all wrong…it would still not rule out a creator or supreme being.
We find even some of our recent history has been revised by man. Does this make all history wrong?
I think not.
Ralph
Tim Brien said:It is absurd to think man, at one point in history, could live to be 1000 years, but totally rational to think we evolved from a single cell or micro-organism? How is one any more rational than the other? Ralph
David, using your thinking, then if one is to disagree with creation science then that defines a person as agnostic. As stated previously, creation/fiction, one and the same. I believe that evolution amplifies faith and respect for a supreme being. Making an absurd statement that dates creation at a precise point in time is superfluous to one's faith. It happpened, period, the exact time is not a matter of faith and yet is held in high esteem by creationists. Genesis makes absurd statements as to the ages of the characters in the bible and yet you accept these as accurate, as you do your point of creation. Does this exactness put some form of obsession with details and not faith based?
“It is absurd to think man, at one point in history, could live to be 1000 years, but totally rational to think we evolved from a single cell or micro-organism?
How is one any more rational than the other?”
Because development from one cell to a viable intelligence is demonstrated every second of every day. You and I are the products of a one cell gamete produced in an ovary, combined with a one cell sperm produced in a testicle and here we are! People reproduce and make viable entities out of single cells every second. People DON’T live to a Methusalah-ian age ever!
Frankly, if your Christian God has his sole purpose as the care and well-being of the humans on this insignificant planet in this insignificant Solar system in this minor galaxy in this infinite universe, then he’s gotta be pretty small cheese.
To those rational thinkers who are reading this (ie. excludes all of you who are adherents to exclusive dogma and superstition…),
can you imagine where we would be as a civilization and a race if we hadn’t wasted 1300+ years in servitude to the dictates of dogma? 100 years ago the Model T was starting to become reliable. Look where we are in one century.
The Greek philosophical empire and the Egyptian and Chinese scientific cultures were starting to reach the levels of our own late 16th century culture over 1000 years ago but were forced to a dead halt by the Dark Ages, driven by…oops…religion. Without that bleak and black intervention I could be writing this missive to you via sub-space ethernet from the far side of Ganymede which my forebears reached 600 years ago.
Was it Wilde who said: Religion is the opiate of the masses…?
I am open to all rational discussions, but dogma recited by adherents of exclusive dogma is not rational discussion. IF there is a Biblical God, He supposedly gave Man a rational mind (Oh! Or did we [rude word!] evolve that?) A rational mind will look at the evidence around him and conclude that there is no Supreme Being. The same rational mind will read (with honesty untainted by exclusive dogma) the writings of this apparent Deity and find so many holes in every chapter that his rational mind will accept the conclusions of his reasoning. If not, obviously not a rational mind to start with so we might just as well talk to the dog or the cat or the wall and anticipate the same level of sensible response.
A letter to the London Times (1931): "If God had meant us to fly He wouldn’t have given us the railways! " An example of a rational? mind?
Here endeth the lesson.
oops.
Tim Brien said:You are correct Tim. Belief in creation is secondary to belief in, love of and obedience to the Creator. Some believe in the Creator others worship creation.
David, using your thinking, then if one is to disagree with creation science then that defines a person as agnostic. As stated previously, creation/fiction, one and the same. I believe that evolution amplifies faith and respect for a supreme being. Making an absurd statement that dates creation at a precise point in time is superfluous to one's faith. It happpened, period, the exact time is not a matter of faith and yet is held in high esteem by creationists. Genesis makes absurd statements as to the ages of the characters in the bible and yet you accept these as accurate, as you do your point of creation. Does this exactness put some form of obsession with details and not faith based?
I believe the Bible to be correct as written, you may not. This discussion is my attempt to give some “scientifically” plausible explanations for the accounts as recorded 4,000 to 2,000 years ago by the books included in the Bible and other historians of the period. I doubt if any of us stood side by side and witnessed an auto accident, we would have the same testimony.
An agnostic is one who denies the existence of any sort of god.
After sitting here for an hour or so, talking with my pet sperm cell, about Fr.Phil’s fine sermon, from the Ridge; we have to accept Fr.Phil’s suggestion as the most logical one to be posted here in more than a week.
Actually the creationist and evolutionist are all wrong. We did not originate on this planet. We are the incorrigible criminals of the galaxy and this is the penal colony like the one the British had in Australia which settled that country and made it such a group of hardy folks. Since we are incorrigible criminals and the Socialist Galactic Council could not bring themselves to eliminate (execute) us so they have dropped us off here in the far corner and visit us once in a while (UFO’S) to see if we are progressing towards readmission to their realm. We are not. This would explain the sudden appearance of man on this blue marble and why there are so many languages, races, and differences yet we are genetically about the same. That is we can cross breed. For the evolution theroy there is just not enough time for us to have evolved into so many races etc. For the creationist just how many creations were there to make up all the different people on earth. Was there a Chinese Adam and Eve, Caucasian Adam and Eve, etc etc. When the Galactic Council dropped us off they zapped us so we did not have any memory of where we had been. Errased our galatic memory they did. Except some folks have dreams of different worlds, places and time not of this earth.
This is Noel’s theroy of the universe. We are not alone and get ready. They are coming back and most of us will not make it to the next level.
N
Yes Padre, but Bob’s link is just as “lucid”. 
Many, many moons ago, during basic training in the Swiss army, we were ordered to attend the obligatory indoctrinatian sessions run by the chaplain.
Apparently we were the “group from hell” in as much as that whoever didn’t attend “THE denominational high school” in Zürich, had just finished an apprenticeship together in the same company. In other words “a tightly knit group”! 
The chaplain gave us his usual spiel followed by a Q&A session. Did we have questions? You better believe it!
That’s when all the “stuff” we had learned in religious studies up to that point came into play. The chaplain could twist and turn as much as he liked, there would always be one more quote and one more question that would follow his “answers”. It was THE perfect study in contradictions, naturally cut short by his comment that we were dismissed and there was no need for the second planned session. 
Bob's link said:
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"Mary:
Sticks her fingers in her ears.“I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la.”John:
“That’s disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that…”Me:
“It’s good! I eat it all the time.”Mary:
She faints.John:
He catches Mary. “Well, if I’d known you were one of those I wouldn’t have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the snot out of you I’ll be there, counting my money and laughing. I’ll kiss Hank’s butt for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater.”With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
In my previous life, we lived for 18 years out in the country, with a nice long driveway (200m) leading in slightly twisty fashion through the woods to the house. Since I worked from homebase there were the occasions when visitors would venture up the driveway, announced by “Rusty”, our Husky/Golden cross.
And so it was one day a party of four in a rather old NA “battleship” showed up with “tools” in their hands. Since I always enjoy a good discussion and since the job wouldn’t run away we settled in for the duration. I forgot how long it took them to take their leave - must have been at least twenty minutes - but they finally realized that it was “Mission Impossible”.
Now, in the country one usually has a nice large yard to turn around one’s vehicles and since they were parked off to the side in the shade it would have benn easy to just turn and leave. Nope, they very carefully backed down the slightly twisty driveway - all 200m - back to the road.
Relating the story to one of my friends he dead-panned: “I’m not surprised, they wouldn’t turn their backs on the devil, would they?”
Phil Creer said:If one believes in evolution, then one must also except the possibility that man could have lived much longer at one point in history. Maybe at one point long life was required for the survival of the species. Man's numbers may have been few. Maybe as man overpopulated the Earth, shorter life span became necessary for survival. Where is it written that life span always increases during the course of evolution? There are hundreds of reasons it may have been possible for man to live 900 or 1000 years at one point in our history. Disease could have been intoduced into the world and shortened mans life span. The Sun could be much stronger now shortening man's lifespan. I can go on and on. You all seem to use the same false logic........ That the bible is wrong, so there is no God. If the Bible is wrong, the logical conclusion would be that the religions using the Bible are wrong. You all seem to have gone from A to D, without giving thought to B or C. Ralph
"It is absurd to think man, at one point in history, could live to be 1000 years, but totally rational to think we evolved from a single cell or micro-organism? How is one any more rational than the other?" Because development from one cell to a viable intelligence is demonstrated every second of every day. You and I are the products of a one cell gamete produced in an ovary, combined with a one cell sperm produced in a testicle and here we are! People reproduce and make viable entities out of single cells every second. People DON'T live to a Methusalah-ian age ever! Frankly, if your Christian God has his sole purpose as the care and well-being of the humans on this insignificant planet in this insignificant Solar system in this minor galaxy in this infinite universe, then he's gotta be pretty small cheese. To those rational thinkers who are reading this (ie. excludes all of you who are adherents to exclusive dogma and superstition...), can you imagine where we would be as a civilization and a race if we hadn't wasted 1300+ years in servitude to the dictates of dogma? 100 years ago the Model T was starting to become reliable. Look where we are in one century. The Greek philosophical empire and the Egyptian and Chinese scientific cultures were starting to reach the levels of our own late 16th century culture over 1000 years ago but were forced to a dead halt by the Dark Ages, driven by.....oops......religion. Without that bleak and black intervention I could be writing this missive to you via sub-space ethernet from the far side of Ganymede which my forebears reached 600 years ago. Was it Wilde who said: Religion is the opiate of the masses...? I am open to all rational discussions, but dogma recited by adherents of exclusive dogma is not rational discussion. IF there is a Biblical God, He supposedly gave Man a rational mind (Oh! Or did we [rude word!] evolve that?) A rational mind will look at the evidence around him and conclude that there is no Supreme Being. The same rational mind will read (with honesty untainted by exclusive dogma) the writings of this apparent Deity and find so many holes in every chapter that his rational mind will accept the conclusions of his reasoning. If not, obviously not a rational mind to start with so we might just as well talk to the dog or the cat or the wall and anticipate the same level of sensible response. A letter to the London Times (1931): "If God had meant us to fly He wouldn't have given us the railways! " An example of a rational? mind? Here endeth the lesson.
Ralph Berg said:
...............You all seem to use the same false logic… That the bible is wrong, so there is no God.
If the Bible is wrong, the logical conclusion would be that the religions using the Bible are wrong.
You all seem to have gone from A to D, without giving thought to B or C.
Ralph
Ralph,
False logic? Hmmmmm … do you mean to say that religion (OTOH) is true logic? Strictly faith based true logic? Very interesting concept!
Ralph,
anything is possible, however, one point of evolution is built in obsolescence. Every time a cell reproduces it fails minutely at its task. We call this process ‘aging’. It is commonly accepted that due better diet and medical advances, that man actually lives longer, on average than at any point in our history. considering that some men in history defied the odds and lived for a thousand years as revealed in Genesis, then were they married to the same woman? If so then women must have lived that long. Did other members of the tribe not mentioned specifically in the bible, live for a millenia?
I was brought up in the Catholic faith and cannot remember recalling any characters in the official bible living beyond their years. As a devotee of detail, that is one point that would have stuck in my memory. Of course, those who subsequently wrote other bibles could have written anything they wanted to, as evidenced by man living a thousand years. If I was a devout religious follower and got to Genesis 5.3 onwards, I would close the book and settle down to a nice fire fuelled by a burning bible.
Creation science has the earth as roughly six thousand years old and yet the main characters in Genesis lived for a thousand years each, conceiving children at over one hundred years of age. Now, when someone with a logical head starts to do the sums, that six thousand years is accomodated for in Genesis alone, let alone the Exodus and the New Testament. We know that Christ died two thousand years ago, so that only leaves four thousand years for creation, Genesis, Exodus and all the other stuff, remembering that people are living for a thousand years each. Somehow, common sense seems to have not been part of the bible's master plan of creation. As reliable calendars were not available at the time of creation, exactly how many days were in a year? Certainly a day is defined in Genesis, but a year is not so defined, nor is a month as, at the time, astromers were not familiar with absurdities like phases of the moon, etc as the sun and the moon, according to Genesis were placed in the heavens to be subservient to the earth. It was not until the mid 1500's that man realised that the earth was not the centre of the universe, something heathen indians in Central and South America realised hundereds of years previously. Non-christians got on with their lives without Genesis and creation and achieved far greater advances. At the time of the fall of the Roman Empire, civilisations existed in South America that eclipsed any achievement western man had up until that time and for a thousand years to come. They knew nothing of creation.You know this has turned into a rather insulting subject as people are allowed to attack other’s beliefs and religion. Now in the past, I have been personally scorned for calling somebody that attacks the Country many of us call home a “raghead”, because that may be insulting a whole religion. And during the election you certainly couldn’t mention that the one candidate wasn’t really black, but a half breed of two races, questionable nationality, and certainly questionable religious belief and oh by the way that he also has big ears and his wife has a rear end as big as a caboose (railroad subject). I’ve even seen people thrown from this list for wanting to build death camp rail cars and that was, once again, a train subject. But I guess the Christians on this list are suppose to take their beliefs being publically challenged as just good debate and all redicule should be tolerated. Sorry guys, slam all you want, you don’t challenge my Faith.
Ralph,
Quote: “You all seem to use the same false logic… That the bible is wrong, so there is no God.
If the Bible is wrong, the logical conclusion would be that the religions using the Bible are wrong.”
It is common knowlege that many races of mankind actually have no bible. In reality, they did not have written text up until recently. Surprisingly, these heathens actually believe in a god. It is innate in all humans (except those who refute it) that a supreme being exists and is responsible for all that is around them. Up until recently, these tribal people respected their environment, knowing that firstly they had to respect their creator and secondly they had their children and grandchildren’s interest as family was important. Alas, along came christian educated western people who conquered them and plundered and instilled in them their inferiority, as they were not followers of Christ. As they did throughout Europe, they converted with the sword and the funeral pyre. Christian man has certainly made his mark on humanity, all in the name of god.
Ric,
if you staunchly believe in your faith, then you will defend its credibility and your beliefs, as defense makes one stronger. Those infidels amongst us, are only using the very words that your faith is built upon, to point out inconsistencies in your religion. If this is insulting, then are the very words of your faith an insult to you?
“are the very words of your faith an insult to you?” Not at all. I just was interested in how some subjects have been off limits and some aren’t.
Those that can’t laugh at “man’s attempt” to control his World, just show that they believe there is nothing else and that they must hold on to this.
http://www.mos.org/evolution/fossils/
Here is the fossil link used by evolutionist.
One can see periods of 100,000 years and more where there is no fossil evidence of man.
You have periods in the last 100,000 years where there is no fossil evidence of man for 10,000 years.
How did man survive the numerous Ice Ages ?
It is more likely the Earth was repopulated after each Ice Age.
As for commonly accepted facts that we now live longer due to better medical care…that applies to the last few hundred years.
Ric,
They are not challenging my Faith. Nor am I challenging your Faith.
I’m challenging their flawed logic.
My initial reaction was to stay out of it. Should have followed my first instinct.
Ralph