Looking at the issues/options - has anyone considered or implemented a combined approach?
Use on-board batteries and continuously “recharge” from the track power.
This would:
allow operation over sections that have marginal power,
allow ongoing recharge of the batteries, so that the “fun does not have to stop for a recharge” (however prototypical that may be…)
-Keith.
Yes. Batteries and R/C is the way to go.
Both? Like charging from the track? Never seems to work out like you think it would. Instead of the best of both worlds, you always seem to get the worst of both worlds. I just put the battery in the tender, and swap it out to charge. What? Your locos don’t have tenders? How very odd.
Wow, a lot of battery fans here. I don’t want to start a debate, but no one mentioned DCC.
I use a digitrax DCC system and hooked the loconet cable to a computer running JMRI free software. There are free apps for android (and iphone) to use your phone/tablet/ifeminine product as a throttle to control your trains, turnouts, etc wireless using your home network.
The apps and software are so much easier than the digitrax throttles to run and program your trains. It’s the difference between reading English and reading code. All my trains are called up by name, not a number, and all the function keys are visible and labeled with what they do. Bell, horn, horn type, bell type, bell volume, ditch lights, etc., etc.
Just more food for thought.
Mike I do run DCC and enjoy all the things you do. I was trying to closely respond to the question as I understood it, “what do you think of batter r/c”.
I engineered my track so I don’t have any of the track cleaning issues that seem to be the prime motivator for people to switch to battery. Did it right the first time and happy I did.
Greg
I also run DCC. I was seriously considering battery/RC but it wouldn’t be optimal for what I want to do.
Apart from that I like the fact that my DCC system scales up and down from 2m to N scale i.e. no duplication. Can be used with a computer interface or a simple stand-alone for a “lets play trains” layout to take to shows.
I guess that the only real question that hasn’t been asked is…Where do you want to be, when you are controlling any train on your vast empire of trackage ?
The other question, if you choose track power, be it just plain DC, or DCC, is…how will you feed this track with the power you will need (For DCC, the power feeds will include the control signals) Then of course, if you use DC; how will you arrange block control, for some sort of control you will need to “Run” more than one train at a time ?
This isn’t even looking at proper “Operation”…it’s just trying to address how the chosen control system will work.
These questions have to find answers, in order to enjoy what you have set out as your dream railroad, and are not meant to discourage you at all, or to try, in any way to tell you how to run your railroad.
I went with relay controlled track power on my layout. I understood how to wire that up from my old HO and N scale days. It was less expensive, no added equipment in the locomotives. And it allowed me to have automatic stop blocks, so I could have 2 trains play tag in the one reverse loop. I did upgrade to the Aristo Train Engineer, shortly after the neighbor kid decided he wanted my trains to go faster, and sent my Aristo Pacific on a romp through the weeds. I like the ability to radio control my trains, even though they are still running on track power.
It doesn’t take much to clean the stainless steel track that I use, and I have to walk the railroad for debris removal anyway. So I walk the railroad with my pole sander, with a damp rag on it, to remove grit and bird droppings, while I pick up the twigs and leaves.
I also used 5 foot sections of rail, and I have feeder wires to each section of rail. The bus wires are buried in the ballast alongside the track. When I built the railroad, I had no experience with building a railroad outside, so I decided I wanted it as bulletproof as possible. So I have very few power problems with my railroad. When I do have power problems, its usually bird droppings on the rails, or a leaf caught under the drive wheels of my locomotive.
To do the automatic stops and starts with DCC, or battery power, would require more wiring for sensors and control circuits, and more electronic equipment. I did my 2 reverse loops and 2 stop blocks with 4 relays. A much simpler, easier and more robust set up.
As I have said before, I am cheap. I build the control system on the cheap, and its worked flawlessly for 12 years now. So, now that I have rambled on, the basic answer to many railroading questions, including this one, is “it depends”.
Here’s my two cents…
I started out with track power, because it was simple, cheap and easy – and also because I had a distrust of batteries, due to problems I’d had with certain electronics (video camcorders, for instance).
Also, I knew that it would be easier to switch from track to battery, if I wanted to, than to go the other way.
Despite living in a very idyllic climate, the track still needed cleaning a lot more frequently than I’d expected. It might have been easier if I’d ever gotten around to building a track cleaning car, but even then I’d still have to clean the track manually after extended periods of non-use.
I have lots of tunnels, and having to open these up frequently for track cleaning was not fun.
In 2012 I scratchbuilt a railbus. Due to the light weight and short wheelbase, it had to be battery powered. I soon found myself running the railbus more than the trains, because it was always ready to run and no need to clean the track first. That convinced me to take the plunge into battery power.
I had been putting off installing an r/c receiver in my 4-6-0, so while I did that I also converted it for batteries. It got a large block of lithium ion batteries that literally let me run it for days, several hours at a time, before needing a recharge. I haven’t yet gotten around to converting my RS3, but it’s next on the list.
The railbus uses the electronics from a small r/c car. The locos use Aristo’s Revolution control system and are fitted with Phoenix sound.
So far I haven’t gotten into switching, etc. Mostly just let it run. But the r/c control is indispensable even for this, mainly due to the ability to stop and start the train, or adjust the speed, from a distance. And it’s essential for running two things at the same time, such as the train and the railbus, to avoid collisions.
[i]"has anyone considered or implemented a combined approach?
Use on-board batteries and continuously “recharge” from the track power."[/i]
There have been a few folks who have tried such things over the years, but ultimately it has proven impractical.
With the Li-Ion technology, longevity isn’t near the issue it was with the older battery chemistries. A battery pack around 2" x 3" x 3" will run your train for anywhere from 4 - 8 hours depending on the train. You’re going to need to recharge before your batteries do. On my trains, most locomotives are designed such that I can just swap out a dead pack for a fresh one, and it only takes me 90 minutes or so to charge a pack. I’ve always got a fresh one ready to go. If I notice things getting sluggish, I stop at the station and swap the battery.
There is one DCC decoder (Lenz Gold) which employs what they call “hybrid” drive, which uses battery back-up to track power. In my opinion, if you’re going to go through the trouble of installing batteries powerful enough to run your train for an hour or more, why are you bothering with track power in the same loco?
Having said that, some track-powered command control systems do use banks of capacitors to counter momentary lapses in continuity. They’re not designed to run the train for long periods of time, but long enough to where you’d not notice minor dirty track glitches.
Later,
K
The main problem with having track pick up with battery back up, apart from the more complex installation, is that you still have to clean the track. If you don’t, eventually there is not enough clean track to keep the battery charged. So you end up running primarily on battery power. To my way of thinking why not go full battery in the first place?
For those who were talking about using track power to charge batteries this really does not work well as great as it sounds in theory. The fact is you can have variable voltage on the track and that does not work well in charging a battery system like Lithium ion that really expects a stable voltage supply. If you do a hybrid system you do switching between one or the other, trying to get them to work together does not work well.
I’m a fairly recent convert to battery r/c. Started all track power with block control. Added a simple trail car with a drill battery and a track side TE receiver that got me started. Upgraded the trail car to LiIon batteries, RailBoss r/c and Phoenix sound. This gives me battery r/c and sound for multiple locos at a lower cost. Granted I must always have the same car behind the locos but that doesn’t bother me.
The trail car worked out so well I built a second one. I’ve recently done two conversions to self-contained and finally pulled the plug on all track power.
Greg mentioned range as an issue. This was true a few years ago, but recent 2.4Ghz products have excellent long range capability. The battery life to weight ratio has also greatly improved with LiIon and now you can get a pack capable of running most locos for several hours for under $20.
To avoid confusion, the OP asked about R/C not actually battery. Remote Control, with a throttle that is either wired and let’s you walk around a bit (usually called tethered), or throttles that are wireless units are available with or without battery power. Radio Control, normally means a wireless throttle. As you can see below, the OP literally asked about remote control or radio control, not actually battery vs. track power. Of course these things get intertwined a bit. My DCC system has wireless remote control and a maximum of about 30 people running at the same time with the ability to have 10,000 unique locomotives on the track at the same time, as well as 1,000 remotely controlled switches, and the wireless coverage area can be the size of a football field. So, there are many “flavors” to “remote control”. Greg
Stacy Krausmann said:
With the idea that it is fun to control these engines with total realism and control, I wonder how many use RC to control their layouts outside. Especially larger layouts that require allot of track. Battery power consumption must be one consideration I’m sure, but also running multiple units (engines) at one time and on different tracks. Honestly, I have never done any RC trains before and wonder what you guys think of it.
Thanks Stacy K.
One thing I learned very early in my model railroading life, was that, no-mater what scale, the weakest link in “Electric, track powered Trains” was, and still is the wheel to rail contact.
Today, that contact also is the link in DCC for the signal to the receiver.
But; I also must note, that many, many people, in all scales, enjoy a great experience with DCC, especially INDOORS, where there is generally more, or at least better control of the environment, so that better rail/wheel contact can be maintained.
Well actually Greg, the OP did ask about battery consumption right there in the third para of your quote.
I would think common sense should tell any reader his overall intention was to ask about on board battery R/C. Not track R/C.
Fred Mills, BSc, BS, SD said:
One thing I learned very early in my model railroading life, was that, no-mater what scale, the weakest link in “Electric, track powered Trains” was, and still is the wheel to rail contact.
Today, that contact also is the link in DCC for the signal to the receiver.
But; I also must note, that many, many people, in all scales, enjoy a great experience with DCC, especially INDOORS, where there is generally more, or at least better control of the environment, so that better rail/wheel contact can be maintained.
I’ve been using DCC outdoors for about 7 years (6 in PA, 1 in FL). Honestly, I have more issues with leaves and sticks falling from the canopy of live oaks than dirty track. Yes the track needs to be clean, but a few runs with just a simple Aristocraft track cleaning MOW (fitted with drywall screen sandpaper) towed by a USAT engine with pickup shoes has always done the trick for me. It may sputter the first time around if the track has been idle for an long extended period, but it gets the job done.
DCC does have a slight advantage over DC track power in that the full voltage is applied to the track constantly. However, I try to minimize rail joints with larger sections, screw all joiners, have multiple power connection points, and solder jumpers around switch-tracks, all of which would be eliminated with battery. Wheels also need to be routinely cleaned as I have found recently!
Sounds like you guys can get long periods of run time between battery charging. I’ve had problems with R/C cars and LiPo batteries where they need charging every 15 minutes, and I have had drill batteries that eventually fail to charge and weren’t all that old. So I went DCC like I had with HO.
That said, I do intend to build a MOW car that runs on battery, has a bilge blower for the leaves, and drywall sandpaper to clean the track. I don’t think I’ll need R/C for that, just turn it loose on an empty loop of track.
although some treat the question if RC or not almost like a religious matter, the answer is as easy, as it is non specific.
Stacy, it simply depends on what you would like to do, when your trains are running.
if you want to influence the trains actively - RC is a big help.
if you want, like me, to sit and lean back, watching trains go roundy-round, you need RC as urgently, as you would need a rusty nail in your foot.
(in largescaling since 45 years, still using simple DC trackpower and regulating trains with reeds and magnets)
Just to add one more: How about W-LAN (WiFi)?
Fred Mills, BSc, BS, SD said:
One thing I learned very early in my model railroading life, was that, no-mater what scale, the weakest link in “Electric, track powered Trains” was, and still is the wheel to rail contact.
Today, that contact also is the link in DCC for the signal to the receiver.
But; I also must note, that many, many people, in all scales, enjoy a great experience with DCC, especially INDOORS, where there is generally more, or at least better control of the environment, so that better rail/wheel contact can be maintained.
Padre,
DCC for garden railways is all the rage in Europe, from relatively simple set-ups to layouts with oodles of track. AND not only that, most of those layouts use brass track. It’s just like indoors, if one runs the stuff everyday track cleaning is hardly necessary.
Much of that success is in a great measure because sound decoders with excellent sound libraries are available from several mfgs. If one is mostly into running the stuff, in more or less roundy-round fashion, sound is really the ticket. Having engine specific sounds is even more of a plus.
Oh BTW, they have weather over there, too.
Yep, I’m a roundy-round, beer in hand, sitting in a lawn chair operating 3 trains at once kind of guy (going to try 4 trains today). Sound and independent control is important to us roundy-rounders too, not just for prototypical operators! I have one large continuous loop, just need to keep the trains separated so they don’t catch up with the one in front of them.
And with my cell phone as the throttle and JMRI, I am utilizing my home WiFi network!