Large Scale Central

Question for Revolution TE users

I was thinking of going DCC for my control system for my layout, BUT I don’t want to spend that amount of money to run trains on my small layout. Will only run no more the 2 small consists at a time.I have batteries to use for power.If you are a user of the “REVO” I have some questions pros :slight_smile: and cons :frowning: of the system.

What are the pros :slight_smile: of the system?
1 Ease or use
2 What inexpensive sound systems work…Dallee,.Hyde Out Mountain…My Loco sound , or what others
3 Typical Range
4 Will this years production units work with future production for basic control ( forward,reverse,sound triggers,ect. )
5 What else

What are the cons :frowning: of the system?
1 A proprietary system.
2 What else
I know I am not asking all the questions I need to. More will come up BUT for now thank you for your help
Richard

I use both the Revolution and wireless/battery DCC systems (Airwire/Phoenix and QSI/NCE). Each has its advantages and disadvantages…

The Revolution as I see it:

Pros:
Smooth control with PWM. Momentum control is easy to set up and use for slow-speed starts and stops.
Very easy to program through plain English menus. No obtuse CV codes that vary from one manufacturer to the next to sort through. (Yes, the basic CVs are consistent because they’re standardized. But the high-end function CVs are manufacturer specific, as are how they’re programmed, based on which controller you’re using to do the programming.)
Graphic display on transmitter easily is the most informative of any I’ve used, showing loco, speed, direction, battery strength, signal strength.
Display is backlit for night running.
Small receiver fits easily in most any locomotive. Larger “super receiver” can be used in larger locos (or groups of locos) that draw considerable current.
Receiver is inexpensive - $75 on the street, less if purchasing them in a 6-pack.
6 function control is likely suitable for many users. Functions can control lights, smoke units, and/or sounds.
Transmitter easy to figure out and use.
Easily connected to a variety of 3rd-party sound systems including Phoenix, Sierra, Dallee, MyLocoSound and others past and present. Can easily control all of the available sound functions of those boards. The reality is that your choice of sound cards is just as great with the Revolution as going DCC, just that you have different choices. I actually choose which control system I’m going to install specifically on which sound I want in the locomotive.
Controller is small, has a belt clip for easy carrying. (Hint: wrap some scotch tape around the outside edge of the transmitter to keep it from breaking apart when accidentally dropped on the floor.)

Cons:
Compared to high-end DCC systems, functionality is limited.
No BEMF or similar control for very slow-speed crawl speeds which some DCC controllers can accomplish.
No knob or thumbwheel on controller.
No quick way to just type in the number of the loco you want to control. You must scroll through all the cabs to get to the desired loco. (Not an issue if you’re only running one loco at a time.)
How “cabs” are assigned to locomotives is a odd to grasp at first read.
Setting start and top speeds limits the number of steps on the throttle (i.e, start speed of 20 and top speed of 60 gives you 40 steps at the 1-step-per-push setting.) DCC gives you 128 steps regardless of what your start and top speeds are. In all practicality, I don’t know that this is necessarily that big of a deal, as I’ve yet to be able to notice any distinct change in speed from one step to the next at 128 steps. If you need more “steps” on the Revolution, you change the setting to adjust how many steps each press of the button advances the throttle.
“Speed matching” capability between two locomotives is less than what DCC is capable of.

Personally, I wouldn’t worry too much about the “proprietary” issue. A few reasons. First, even if a manufacturer abandoned the product line for newer, better stuff, the used market will support you for years to come. (Anyone want some RCS throttles, see the classifieds.) Sierra hasn’t made a sound system in how many years, but they’re still fairly readily available, and Soundtraxx does still offer support for them. Aristo still offers support for their legacy products even if they’re no longer produced. The other thing to consider is that even though DCC is an open architecture, there are proprietary elements in play here and there which crop up every now and then. In terms of wireless battery R/C controls, consider the incompatibility between the NCE controller and Airwire’s decoders. It’ll run them just fine, but you must use Airwire’s controller to fully program them.

You’re not going to go wrong with either protocol. For how I operate my trains, they’re pretty much dead even. As I said earlier, I base which receiver I purchase based on the sound system I’m using. If I’m using a Phoenix system, I’ll go with the Airwire board since it’s got the DCC pass-through to get the “most” out of the Phoenix board. If I’m using a Sierra or other board, then I’ll use the Revolution. I could use the Revolution with the Phoenix just as easily, but the DCC control gives me more sound and function control of the Phoenix than would the Revolution. It’s an extra $70 for the G2 vs. the Revolution, but I don’t have a lot of locos and the control is worth the expense for me.

Later,

K

Having a proprietary system is more than just an issue of support, I agree with Kevin that you’ll find support for years after the purchase, unless it’s a system like the Aristo 75MHz one, that never functioned completely, and promised accessories never appeared.

No, the main issue is that your choice of components is limited.

With something like the Aristo Revo, you can only use their receivers, only from them.

With DCC you can buy decoders from dozens of manufacturers, even build them yourself.

Even the CVP products have some alternatives on receivers, and will use basically any DCC sound unit.

Regards, Greg

Many auto manufactures currently have proprietary systems. However for them to prosper in today’s society (like the kindle thread here) they need to share information like the Asian market does?

The Asian market doesn’t share information.
They just “acquire” it.

Uhh… no one is upset that they cannot buy a part from Toyota for their Ford.

We might be upset if we could only buy one brand of receiver for our R/C system.

I don’t think the analogy works David.

The market is not really big enough to share info, and could you imagine Aristo giving out design details so others could make Revolution stuff too?

I think hell freezing over is more possible.

Regards, Greg

Greg,
Would you be upset if you purchased an electronic part with a high failure rate, that any idiot with a screwdriver could take 5 minutes to replace however that part will not work unless the dealer(only) downloads software too it? Volvo(mainly), Volkswagen, Audi are just a few that think that way. However the Asian market does not.
That’s all I was saying and I guess it really does not pertain to this thread much. I was just spouting off work related steam.
Sorry
:frowning:

I did not disagree with your point of view, just the analogy.

Car makers are big enough to thumb their noses at the consumers AFTER we buy the car… maybe it’s our fault we don’t research well enough how they make it impossible for independent garages to work on your car by keeping the computer interfaces proprietary.

I think it’s just wrong.

It took some laws to force them to grudgingly, share the info.

I do have an Audi, and I can reprogram it, and tell exactly what is wrong BEFORE I take it to the “stealer” for repairs.

Hmm… maybe I just wound up agreeing with you… ha ha!

Greg

Having used other Aristo-Craft, Train Engineer Systems previously, I found the Revolution System very easy to install. Like the previous on-board 27 MHz and 75 MHz receivers, the Revolution receiver plugs into the Plug and Play socket found in most Aristo-Craft locomotives.

QSI makes a DCC decoder with sound that also plugs into the Plug and Play socket. To obtain radio control you can add the G-wire receiver. It attaches to the decoder with a small ribbon cable. When I purchased this system several years ago, the AirWire throttle was used to control it. I am sure by now there are other throttles available that could be used.

In our club the Phoenix Sound P8 sound board has become the sound board of choice. They have excellent sound quality and are reasonably priced ($150-$160). The down side is the number of wires required to install the board: 2 for power, 2 for the speaker, two to sense motor speed, two or three for sound volume control, 2 to 6 trigger wires depending on the number of sound functions you wish to control with the Revolution throttle.

There are less expensive sound boards available but many lack the sound quality and features that the Phoenix Sound boards offer. Some like Sierra, are also incompatible with the PWC output of the Revolution receiver and require an additional board to operate properly.

The Revolution receiver comes with an adapter board for installations in non Plug and Play locomotives. A Plug and Play Board is also available separately with the receiver socket on it. Installations in USA trains diesels are not difficult and there is information available for specific locomotives. Unfortunately the voltage regulators used in some USA diesels are incompatible with the PWC output of the Revolution receiver and the lights will not function properly. However there are ways of rewiring the lights or replacing them with LEDs.

I like the size of the Revolution transmitter because I can slip it in a shirt pocket while throwing switches or uncoupling cars. Unlike some DCC throttles it does not have buttons labeled for specific sound functions, but the trigger wires can be connected to the sound board trigger wires to make it easy to remember. On my throttles button 2aBc is for the Bell, 4gHi for Horn, 5jkL for Less sound volume, and 6Mno for More sound volume. If I have used trigger wires for independent control of my LED headlights, button 3deF is used to turn the Front headlights on and off, and the remaining button 1 for the rear lights.

No matter which system you use there will be a learning curve, as well as, pros and cons concerning features. In our club our members have quickly learned how to install and operate the Revolution system. I get more questions during our operating sessions about the 27 MHz and 75 MHz legacy systems than the Revolution Train Engineer. I believe the easy to read English menus really make it more user friendly.

I have found the reliable and responsive range to be 200 feet or better. Radio range is better on raised railways than those on the ground. Unlike previous Train Engineers, the receiver antenna is very short which makes installations easier.

The firmware on the Revolution throttle can be upgraded by Aristo-Craft to incorporate new features. When Greg suggesting the MU process be simplified during the alpha testing period prior to release of the product, the firmware was changed. The firmware has recently been updated to be able to accommodate the new remote control switching device.

There is a lot more information on the system. Kevin did a review in Garden Railways a while back, and the manual is available to be read or downloaded from the Aristo-Craft web site.

Not to pick too much of a nit Paul, but, the early TE 27 MHz on boards were not PnP.
They used screw terminals.

Oh, one (fairly noticeable) advantage of the Revolution over using the Airwire receiver with either the NCE or Airwire throttles – the “friggin’ STOP already!” button. I was reminded of this yesterday when running for the first time in a few months to test out an Airwire G-2/P8 installation in a locomotive, over track that was evidently a bit less than perfectly clear. If you run with a fair amount of momentum programmed in, it’s like driving a real train. You turn the throttle up, and the train sloooooowwwwwwlllllyyyy takes off until you reach the desired speed. When you want to come to a stop, you turn the throttle down and wait… and wait… and wait… for the train to come to a stop. Both the Airwire and Revolution offer this feature, and it’s a really cool way to run–even more challenging when doing switching. You’ve got to be pretty good to stop the train to couple up to a car and not slam into it. (On both systems, the amount of momentum is adjustable.)

The “problem” is that with the Airwire system, there’s no emergency stop that overrides the momentum settings. If you derail, you’re at the mercy of the momentum setting as to when your train finally comes to a halt. (That, or the rock that it careens into.) With the Revolution, there’s a “stop” button that will override the momentum setting, bringing the train to a fairly rapid halt. The NCE controller that works with the Airwire receivers has a red “stop” button, but the Airwire receivers do not recognize the command to override the momentum setting as the G-wire/QSI combination does.

If you only run with a limited amount of momentum (10% or so) this probably isn’t going to be much of an issue. I usually run around 75% or more, so it can take 10, 15 seconds for the train to come to a stop if it’s at speed.

Later,

K

TonyWalsham said:
Not to pick too much of a nit Paul, but, the early TE 27 MHz on boards were not PnP. They used screw terminals.

Thanks for jogging my memory Tony! You are right the 27 MHz mini was wrapped in an aluminum taco shell and had 2 sets of screw terminals for power and output.

(http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips5/5490.jpg)

I don’t rememberthe big capacitor, but I assume that may have been used to smooth out track power irregularities.

I remember that one… As I recall, I could throw it farther than it would receive a signal. Heck, my 2-year-old could throw it farther than it could receive a signal… Their new stuff is a considerable improvement.

Later,

K

Actually, the stop button on the Revolution is a significant design weakness. “all stop” cycles through ALL the defined locos, WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE RUNNING.

As I recall the emergency stop button on the Gwire stops it right away. Of course I was using a QSI. I will have to see what the design defect is with the CVP throttle as Kevin describes it. I’m sure he is correct. Wonder if the G2 acts the same way.

But with the revolution, say you have defined 50 locos… (they are numbered that way)… and you have loco #50 on the track. You hit emergency stop, and the Revo transmitter starts transmitting: stop #1, then stop #2, then stop #3… you get the idea… loco #50 has already crashed into something.

You can mitigate this by having fewer locos defined… but that’s taking away the capability of the system, and causing you more programming if you have a fair number of locos… and since there is no computer interface to make programming easy… well…

So, you have a lower cost system with fewer features… you want to save a few bucks, be prepared to live with some of the fewer features…

The revo excels at having a cheap receiver, and menus only, nothing to remember (except what number you gave to that loco)…

Greg

One of the advantages of RCS Digital Proportional speed control radios is, for an emergency stop you simply pull the throttle stick all the way back to zero. Voilà!! it stops in 2 seconds from full speed.

There is also a one touch throttle down function on some Spektrum 2.4 GHz TX’s.

The acceleration and braking momentum on RCS ESC’s is continually variable. For example, when braking, set the direction stick to the desired rate and then set the throttle to zero. Let the direction stick go at any point of the deceleration and the loco stops in less than 2 seconds.

Greg, I’m referring to the “stop” button in the middle of the arrows, not the “all stop” button down the bottom. When you press the “stop” button between the arrows, the loco (or consist of locos) that you’re currently running comes to a stop rather quickly, regardless of what the cab number may be. The other locos that may or may not be running on other cab numbers are not effected. I’m with you on the “all stop” button not being as fast as it should ideally be, but that’s perhaps why I never use it. (Okay, that and I’m never running more than one loco or consist at a time anyway, so I have no need to.)

The G-2 is what I was running the other day. My experience with the older Airwire boards is identical. It’s my biggest gripe with Airwire. (My second biggest is the T-9000 throttle, but that’s why I have the NCE throttle.) The solution is simple–don’t use momentum. But where’s the fun in that???

Later,

K

Right, sorry if there was confusion, I was indeed talking about the emergency stop / all stop.

The power of the system is multiple locos and multiple loco controls.

I agree, and (here comes the flames), what kind of engineer are you if you don’t use momentum?

It takes more technique, but it’s a lot more realistic…

Regards, Greg

Thanks for the help
I have more questions:
Some inexpensive (cheap) sound systems don’t like PWC can it be turned off and go with linear without buying a PWC to linear board ?
What inexpensive (Cheap) sound boards are there?
Dallee
Hyde out Mountain
MYlocosound
ITT
Any others that are OK ? I don’t need super high quality, just some sound.
Thanks, Richard

Richard Eberwein said:
Thanks for the help I have more questions: Some inexpensive (cheap) sound systems don't like PWC can it be turned off and go with linear without buying a PWC to linear board ?
What's your power supply?

MyLocoSound works fine with my PWM (Pulse Width Modulation). I don’t know about the others, but any sound board that does NOT work with PWM these days, is certainly behind the times.