It is clear that our numbers in Large Scale are shrinking at the present time. The purpose of this thread is to explore things we as Large Scale users can do to expand our ranks.
I see this as falling into two different discussions but there are likely more.
Thoughts?
Stan
Well Stan, Look no further then Shawn viggianos thread have an idea.
Regards,Ron
Our local club is extremely public and active. Our layout is in one of the most visited recreational areas in the entire metro area. We make sure we are actively running trains every weekend and once a week during the summer.
To be truthful, we get lots of “wows”, but I am not aware of any new members as a result.
I think it was Paul Race, who, years ago, said to me “We need to get starter sets in the garden department at Home Depot, Walmart and Target.”
Ive always thought that would be one thin end of the wedge. Make a special starter set that has some instructions on setting up a loop/oval/etc around your garden pond, or patio.
Another thing I noticed over the last couple of years when we did the NMRA open houses in June, was that lots of ‘other scale’ modelers like the idea, but I never hear a peep from them ever again. Im not sure where their interest goes, they certainly enjoyed operating. Maybe we need a Large Scale club for non-Large-Scalers?
Bob McCown said:
I think it was Paul Race, who, years ago, said to me “We need to get starter sets in the garden department at Home Depot, Walmart and Target.”
Ive always thought that would be one thin end of the wedge. Make a special starter set that has some instructions on setting up a loop/oval/etc around your garden pond, or patio.
Another thing I noticed over the last couple of years when we did the NMRA open houses in June, was that lots of ‘other scale’ modelers like the idea, but I never hear a peep from them ever again. Im not sure where their interest goes, they certainly enjoyed operating. Maybe we need a Large Scale club for non-Large-Scalers?
Bob,
That really would be up to the mfgs. The BBs you mentioned probably won’t go for it unless they get a “real deal”. Remember even a starter set takes up a lot of space on the shelf.
The “other scalers” are most likely apprehensive on a few fronts
a) the cost
b) the image of LS in the general model railroader populace - toy trains?
c) the supposedly limited time one can operate in the garden - not withstanding TOC’s sessions in all kinds of weather.
One of these days I’ll get that switching layout done and take it to the November display at the shopping mall.
As the old saying goes “Out of Sight, Out of Mind” same applies here in Large Scale.
If people can’t see it, can’t touch it, can’t operate it… they wont even know it exists.
With fewer and fewer train specific hobby shops around, and even fewer dealing in LS trains it will be all that more difficult getting interest.
Out of my three local shops only one still has LS items left on the shelf… however most of them have been there for a long…very long time.
I also think LS needs to focus more on the age bracket that is actually purchasing there product, and from what I have seen that would be 30+ on up. I for one think they need to abandon the attempt to cater to children, lets face it, when a child see’s a LS train and shows any interest the first thing the parent see’s is the price tag… game over.
At a local nursery they have a LS layout, which I thought was a brilliant idea… what better way to get people that enjoy gardening involved in something that could make it even more enjoyable… but sadly, even that display has been long since abandoned.
I don’t know what the answer is, all I know is that I take my once a year trip to Charles Ro and spend half the day just gazing at all of the LS on display, then pack as much of it as I can afford into my truck and head home.
I see it, I touch it, I buy it… That to me seems like the easy answer, the difficult part is getting to that point.
Every year at the ECLSTS they have a wonderful layout as you come in the front door. Ohh, ahh, the kids love to watch it, it’s a great place to meet. Now, what happens after that is probably nothing because they look and go “Isn’t that nice?” Not asking questions about 'How can I do that?"
I really think the layouts get attention, but again it’s the “That’s nice.” Ric Golding really drives the nail home with the Timesaver. He lets the kids do hands on and I see a lot of smiles there. But I have no answer as to how to turn that into another consumer / club member. From my experience in even a small yard IT"S A LOTTA WORK! (Sorry, but I had to scream the obvious). Clubs and open house would work, but I have no one close to me that I could travel to once a week or month. I think that sort of stuff would hook the curious.
My wife made the observation when we get to the show first thing Friday morning. We look at the people carrying out the big boxes, and they’re us baby boomers. When I was much younger, I could only afford some cheap HO stuff that didn’t take up much room. You youngsters today have got to have a yard or join a club, or just collect. But do you just want to look at it and make train sounds? But I digress.
There was a write up in the local paper about our Township Cable Station has a new director who is looking for new ideas. We did get onto the show “On The History Trail” about trying to move and restore the last standing railroad station in the area. Maybe I should come up with a proposal for a G Scale railroad show. Or what if we could do something like the old “American Flyer Boys Club”? It will be a while before we get the station moved and habitable, but we could have a train club for the local kids. I have to think where we could have a semi-permanent layout location.
As a type this it gives me some more ideas for thought, and I hope it stimulates youse guys. We have to rise above a G Scale train going around the top of the bar.
When was the last time anyone in your club gave a presentation to a garden club about virtues of a small train setup to attenuate their garden?
When was the last time your members ran a train at a children’s hospital or handicap facility or group home? Has anyone invited them to a members outdoor display?
When did you host another club of a different scale?
Had an open house for non club members advertized in the local pennysaver? Poker run?
When did your club set up at a non train event such as county fair, Christmas events, museum open house?
Set up in a garden center garden show?
Not much is gained by preaching to the converted. We need to go out and attract converts.
We’ll be on the local garden tour as soon as the layout is end point to end point and the garden is up to our standards.
We get the pros in for some stuff, but anything related to the GRR is in-house. Plenty of work when one has a few other interests “on the side”.
thomas prevost said:
When was the last time anyone in your club gave a presentation to a garden club about virtues of a small train setup to attenuate their garden?
When was the last time your members ran a train at a children’s hospital or handicap facility or group home? Has anyone invited them to a members outdoor display?
When did you host another club of a different scale?
Had an open house for non club members advertized in the local pennysaver? Poker run?
When did your club set up at a non train event such as county fair, Christmas events, museum open house?
Set up in a garden center garden show?
Not much is gained by preaching to the converted. We need to go out and attract converts.
Our club layout is run in cooperation with the local garden club, they tend the plants, we tend the trains.
We have a “concert series” put on by the local city at the site we share with the historic depot on Wednesday nights, at least one kid concert.
We’ve been written up in the local paper and appeared on the news, both recently.
Some members used to put on a display at the State Fair too.
Honestly I am not sure it helps. In all my years I know of one convert who saw what I did and said, ‘yep, me too’. Just not that popular of a hobby I guess. Still I’m not giving up!
Dont know what more we can do, Ive spent 1000’s to promote the Hobby as for the fun factor, But A Lot of times I hear that
the younger folks dont want to enter because of the cranky old Man thing they perceive as a turn
off and the Major reason I hear is cost, Plain and simple… You can only do so much.
With the older generation passing on and hardly any new blood in the Hobby I predict it wont be too many years and you might not see any shows or trains running except at homes.
Truth hurts but the facts are the facts.
Nick
Starter sets are an ideal way to promote the hobby, but in reality how many who purchase a starter set ever achieve their empire in the garden?
I see starter sets as like exercise bikes or home gym equipment. The fat bulging individual looks at himself in the mirror or responds to those ridiculous info commercials about achieving a trim taut body in a week or so by using some new fad exercise machine. The thought is there but the will is weak. They use them once or twice and face the reality that to achieve a trim body (or a railroad empire) then a degree of work is required. The will to achieve does not overcome the effort required. The starter set finishes up in the attic and the exercise/trim equipment gets tripped over a few times and then is placed in the garage out of sight or put out on the kerb for the next council cleanup.
Also many see a large garden railroad display as exactly that, a DISPLAY. The first response is, “I could never build that.” I feel that major model railroad displays are counter to the hobby’s future. The step from a starter set to a display railroad is a daunting proposition. I feel that more managable railroads are productive in convincing the new hobbyist that he could build that. The potential hobbyist needs to convince himself that the railroad he sees is both managable and affordable.
A couple of years ago this hobby was affordable. Prices on items that are available have spiralled upwards beyond the reach of many. The step from an ‘affordable’ starter set to a reasonable railroad ‘empire’ is enormous. Even done at a picemeal rate the amount of money required is simply not affordable. LGB from the beginning subsidised the price of starter sets to enable potential modellers to enter the hobby for a reasonable price. Once in the door then the modeller was ‘trapped’ and expanded his empire with the brand name that introduced him to the hobby, albeit at muchly inflated prices.
The quest for more scale fidelity has driven prices beyond the resources of the typical modeller. The same goes for smaller scales as well.
How do we convince some one to take up the hobby? Firstly, it must be affordable. Secondly, it must be achievable. The modellers dreams must equal both his abilities and reality. As out popular micro-modeller Vic reminds us, he has always had plans for that magic garden railroad, but has had to settle for his micro ‘pizza’ layouts.
One way to promote the hobby, especially on a forum like this one, would be less of some of the snide, cynical, and arrogant put-downs that are thinly disguised as some form of semi-intelligent humor that occasionally gets posted in response to certain remarks. Another would be less of this “gloom and doom, whining, weeping and gnashing of teeth” as to the state of the hobby in general. I’m sure that’s mighty encouraging to anyone who reads that and is starting out in the hobby.
There’s a lot more people involved in the hobby now then there were 20-30 years ago, and quite a few more that have moved up from the smaller scales and brought their wisdom, skills and abilities with them. There’s a lot more choices available to those that enter the LS hobby then there were 20-30 years ago. If a person is interested, they’ll find a way and a means to participate. They’ll seek out and find places like this (LSC), meet’s, clubs, shows, and other interested people if they’re serious and want to learn more about it. That’s been my experience. Negativity never got anyone involved in anything.
I think another problem is our younger generation is way to busy with there gadgets and busy lives. I cant tell you how many parents and kids are on the go from morning till night. Parents today feel they have to run there kids from one sport to the next. (soccer mom mentality). Thats on top of school and work. I really think that is part of the problem. I see this first hand and refuse to live that life style. Yes kids go to the shows etc… and show an interest but after that its back to the hectic lifestyle. How does a child get interested? It starts out seeing a train set, whether at a show or store. Then its up to the parent to help there child get involved but usually it never gets that far. Why? its a combination, price and that busy life style. I’m not sure how other regions of the US are but in NJ /NY area it is like that. Its also very expensive living in this area.
Here is another question? How many on this forum had a large scale layout when raising kids? Im probably the minority that has young kids, full time job and still have a garden RR. I would think most into large scale are from the baby boomer era. That is an era that saw a population spike. Maybe our next population spike will see an increase someday.
Im sure people will disagree with me but as a parent I see it first hand. How often are kids playing outside today?
I think the main issue is cost. starter sets may help but the minute the bug bites and the starter set owner goes shopping for more track and equipment, sticker shock is going to kill the deal. I acquired the vast majority of my equipment 10 or more years ago and at the time felt the price was reasonable. If I had to start over again now I’d probably give it up. That’s from someone who has the where with all to build most of the stuff myself which requires yet another scarce resource, time !
It’s not just model trains, I also build model airplanes. Take a look the next time you are in a hobby shop at the prices on kits. New kits even in 1/72 scale can run $50 or more and a new 1/32 scale release like Tamiya’s new Corsair has an MSRP of close to $200 and sells at a discounted price around $160. Not the kind of prices most young people can afford and obviously aimed at the boomer aged folks with disposable income.
Anyone that reads or listens to the news hears the appalling statistics of the number of folks in the past 6 years that have lost good paying jobs and have had to settle for jobs that provide barely enough for the essentials and one has to wonder how any expensive hobby can continue to grow.
I think a lot of the growth in the hobby over the past few years has been fueled by a sort of feeding frenzy as a lot of new and better detailed eqquipment has become available and in many cases those that have been buying are now tapped out and the demand just isn’t there any more.
Is it really price? For some yes but even then People have no problem spending money on computers, cell phones, video games, sporting equipment etc… That can get very expensive.
I think its just a combination of everything. It will get better again but it will take time.
Shawn Viggiano said:
I think another problem is our younger generation is way to busy with there gadgets and busy lives. I cant tell you how many parents and kids are on the go from morning till night. Parents today feel they have to run there kids from one sport to the next. (soccer mom mentality). Thats on top of school and work. I really think that is part of the problem. I see this first hand and refuse to live that life style. Yes kids go to the shows etc… and show an interest but after that its back to the hectic lifestyle. How does a child get interested? It starts out seeing a train set, whether at a show or store. Then its up to the parent to help there child get involved but usually it never gets that far. Why? its a combination, price and that busy life style. I’m not sure how other regions of the US are but in NJ /NY area it is like that. Its also very expensive living in this area.
Here is another question? How many on this forum had a large scale layout when raising kids? Im probably the minority that has young kids, full time job and still have a garden RR. I would think most into large scale are from the baby boomer era. That is an era that saw a population spike. Maybe our next population spike will see an increase someday.
Im sure people will disagree with me but as a parent I see it first hand. How often are kids playing outside today?
Shawn,
Most urban areas are like that.
Our neighbours have (young) kids; while the parents and grandparents have expressed interest it will be interesting to see how the kids react once we have our “point to point” up and running.
I have a feeling that at least one grandson is hooked - apparently he watches my GRR videos on a regular basis and has started watching the train videos, too.
On the population spike, back in the 40s and 50s trainsets were a very popular Christmas present, even for kids who were not as train crazy as I was. In Switzerland ever kid knew (they still do) what trains are all about, getting from here to there back then: take the train. And today it is: Avoid the hassle, take the train and other public transport.
It’s been almost 10 years since I did some serious market research when contemplating buying an existing large scale business. At that time I gathered up everything I could on demographics and the market from publishers and hobby associations. The conclusion I came to was that the LS market was shrinking. That was well before the recession hit which everyone knows has taken it’s toll on discretionary spending.
I heard a piece on NPR a few days ago speaking to the effect of technology on the young. The conclusion was that technology was the new outdoors and that most young people today have a serious lack of social skills. No surprise to me, that.
I’m also an Amateur Radio Operator, and that hobby is seeing the same decline in new participants even though they have made many changes to make it more attractive.
I don’t mean to be negative, it’s just that I really don’t think, no matter what we do, that in the long run this and many other skill based hobbies have much of a future.
Where do the small scales stand? Are they loosing or gaining? I remember a big push a few years ago with “The Greatest Hobby” campaign. How did that go?
Perhaps if we could somehow outlaw cell phones, texting, Facebook and Twitter there might be some hope :]
Some years ago I saw and heard this first hand about our hobby. A fella I knew got in touch with me after some years of absence and informed me he had seen my old website and was interested in track and turnouts. I was a little bemused by his request as he had never shown an interest in trains in the time he used to manage the band I played in. Appears he had been in our local hobby shop and purchased a LGB starter set that was on throw out pricing. ( That shop has downsized on trains now to the point of being almost non existent. RC planes and cars rule that place now). However I digress, I pointed him in the direction of Austrack and suggested he talk to him on bulk rail and ties and then he asked me if he could visit. He did and was impressed with the turnouts and then nearly choked when I told him how much. He REALLY thought I was ripping him off. The bottom line here was that sticker shock on the trackage drove him out before he even started. This I believe is what is the problem with our hobby. The price point. I make good money at what I do but even then I am really really careful before I buy something because a, it has to come from overseas, postage now is just stunning on articles from the U.S. b, do I really need it as against I have to have it. Even for me I baulk at the price of some things now. And remember this also, I make all my own turnouts and track so the price point there is only in rail and timber.
Shawn Viggiano said:
I think another problem is our younger generation is way to busy with there gadgets and busy lives. I cant tell you how many parents and kids are on the go from morning till night. Parents today feel they have to run there kids from one sport to the next. (soccer mom mentality). Thats on top of school and work. I really think that is part of the problem. I see this first hand and refuse to live that life style. Yes kids go to the shows etc… and show an interest but after that its back to the hectic lifestyle. How does a child get interested? It starts out seeing a train set, whether at a show or store. Then its up to the parent to help there child get involved but usually it never gets that far. Why? its a combination, price and that busy life style. I’m not sure how other regions of the US are but in NJ /NY area it is like that. Its also very expensive living in this area.
Here is another question? How many on this forum had a large scale layout when raising kids? Im probably the minority that has young kids, full time job and still have a garden RR. I would think most into large scale are from the baby boomer era. That is an era that saw a population spike. Maybe our next population spike will see an increase someday.
Im sure people will disagree with me but as a parent I see it first hand. How often are kids playing outside today?
I’m right with you Shawn, it seems we are probably in the same age bracket (37). I also have 3 kids who are active. I have one who is in dance and she goes 3 times a week, I have a son in choir who goes twice a week. Other son is in Marching Band so now Fridays are going to be busy, plus the boys have ju-jit-su class three times a week. On top of that Boy Scouts. My wife and I sat down this week to figure out the schedule and we are busy every day of the week.
With that said, I think it is priorities. With all I have going I still make time to work on trains. Its my hobby and what I do to relax and enjoy. I think many don’t make that a high enough priority. They would just as soon sit down in a chair and watch TV or play a Video Game.