If we could all be just like this
http://youtu.be/OQSNhk5ICTI and reality
Tim Brien said:
Ray Dunakin said:
Tim Brien said:
At what point do Aristo take responsibility for their own failure.
.
Seriously, what difference does it make to you? Were you an investor in AC or something?
Ray,
as a manufacturer one has both a moral and LEGAL reponsibility to ensure that their product is fit for purpose. As a consumer I have a right to evaluate the quality of the product and if not fit for purpose then reserve the right to criticise the product in question.
I thought we were discussing the failure of the company, not rehashing product issues. Yes, the manufacturer has a responsibility to produce a good product. And the customer has the right to refrain from purchasing any products from a manufacturer whose products aren’t up to snuff.
But as far as the failure of the company, their only responsibility is to employees, creditors and investors. They don’t owe anyone else any kind of “mea culpa”.
I think the hot San Diego sun must be getting to you. I have not seen you on a crusade like this in all the years that I have known you. Take more cooling drink when out in the sun to avoid heat stroke.
Sorry. From here out I’ll try harder to avoid injecting any opposing opinions or comments.
Ray,
if you think that it is OK to have no concern for the consumer of your product then I can only assume that you are a governemnt employee. If you were a manufacturer concerned with your bottom line and your employees’ welfare then you would maintain a high quality product thus ensuring sales and prosperity.
The production quality did have an impact on company sales thus my question, “At what point do Aristo assume responsibility for their faulure?” The company cannot simply say the economy caused people to stop buying so no revenue to source further stock. Do you think Lewis’s retirement fund may have impacted on the future of the company? Product sales equals income revenue equals more profit equals more money to invest in future production, thus more sales. You get the idea. That is how a successful business works.
As regards a difference in opinion, I welcome your differing opinions as generally you have always been more laid back in your thread responses, generally just complimenting posters on their kitbashes. You have never really stood your ground previously. A change is in the wind.
One presumption is Aristo-Craft will be purchased. Of course, what constitutes the content of any purchase is a determinate of whether it will be purchased. Will it be thousands or hundreds of rolling stock and locos? Thousands or hundreds of feet of assorted track? Brass? Stainless?
For me, what counts is what WILL be produced after purchase instead of just selling existing stock – either still on the water, in a warehouse, or in China.
If new production, will the product quality foibles that are legion in the current large scale industry be resolved bringing a NEW high quality and FULLY TESTED product to the market?
Pre-market testing? Ah, who is kidding whom? This large scale site is historically replete with requests for companies to INSIST on pre-sale testing. We know this is the manufacturing era of “you don’t own nuttin’” since the manufacturer owns the dies, the quality of the plastic (try sweepings?), and production.
So will the current manufacturer give over quality control to any NEW company ownership – and ensure it will be implemented?
Wendell,
if there was stock to sell then it would be heading out the door at LGB firesale prices. The interest in the company is the name and any intellectual property rights that it may hold. Other than a few items listed on their site and what came over in the last shipment, I really do not think there is any more on offer. Navin has stated a November restock of Revo parts. This is where any spare cash has gone on Revo inventory not on securing ‘new’ stock to flog off cheaply.
The typical firesale vulture now is not looking for MSRP product but genuine firesale prices, but I feel that the cupboard is bare, otherwise the company may have traded a little longer. Obviously vacant possession on their wharehouse would be a mitigating factor in closing their doors as any new purchaser would want a long term client.
As regards future production, I feel gone are the days of overproduction using cheap materials and labour. Bachmann showed what is achievable with the quality that they are capable of, but it is and will be at a price. No more cheap, inexpensive junk. Future production will be the quality of their current production, the C-19. If as I suspect Bachmann (Kader) eventually reintroduce the brand then it will be high quality with consequent high prices.
Tim-
Your insight may be correct: Bachmann purchases the production rights and Kader makes high quality products under the Aristo-Craft brand. The essential point is “gone are the days of overproduction using cheap materials and labor.”
My conclusion is there is NO Genesis, KATO, or ATLAS image attached to large scale. LGB once had it – with thousands of images of LGB trains in Christmas display windows etched in the memories of consumers who never gave a wink at owning one — but went ahead and did for Christmas.
If Bachmann can pull off the HO/N/O KATO-ATLAS-Genesis brand quality by reinstituting Aristo-Craft, kudos to them. Tested quality will have to be the guideline and be the new consumer memory – not the memories of those who have written about the product foibles.
When Aristo started selling direct, it looked to me as if the warehouse was being cleared out of old stock, they were trying to get $$ to stay in business.
That is mt assumption, I have no facts.
Also I noticed a big delay in goods coming in containers.
Then the lack of GR ad and Crest move.
When a company strongly denies that it is going out of business, then they probably are going out of business. I have been seeing this for way too long.
TOC or others. Any inside idea that someone else will pick up and produce the molds already in place? I just started buying 2 bay hoppers from Aristo and now they are no more. When LGB went down it appears that Newqukia (China) picked up their old coach molds. I know it’s not as finely detailed but I need some more of the 2 bay hoppers and to me a hopper is a hopper.
It’s to bad Aristo is going under. I think the balls been losing air for them for some time now. I can remember when they released new product info and we never saw the models produced. I know there was a lot of interest in the SD9 and the SW1 they announced. I don’t think making promises to build things and never releasing them did them any favors. I love the RS-3 and have a FA1 that I recently completed using USA trains motor blocks. I had to use the USA motor blocks to turn the model into a FA-1m. Even the Aristo motor blocks were scares. Sorry to see them go. But keep in mind Aristo had a lot of good rolling stock. Knowing how things go in China I am hopeful we will see the molds produced by someone else’s name.
Before someone pipes in and starts a made in the USA war cry, I am with you. However not much is made here anymore! I model 1:29 and the 2 big manufacturers are USA and Aristo. Now 1 is gone, so I am left with the other. Like it or not the stuff is made in China. I participate in this hobby for enjoyment.
I still would like to see the numbers… yes, initial startup would be astronomical, but with robotics as advanced as they are, you can’t tell me that a robotic assembly line couldn’t be built for mass production.
With the price of oil as much as it is today, the only way a shipping company would radically reduce its price is to install nukes in their engine rooms… Hmmm… maybe decommission the Enterprise and convert to a container vessel with its own helicopter unloading ability?
Anyways, I would like to see someone do the numbers… cost of chinese production plus shipping versus domestic production. Without teh capital investment, which could be shared, I think it would be competitive at least… but I’m not an economist.
Honestly, I think this is actually a historic opportunity. I think the manufacturers should get together and consolidate what they can… track? I mean, really, honestly, why do/did we need Aristo, Bachmann, Lionel, LGB, and USA track? Plus all the other smaller boutique brands. Yes, if they have something unique to offer, say stainless steel rail, by all means, feel free to expand. But for the common 332 brass rail, why did we need to fragment the hobby to such an extreme? Aside from price, what did it benefit us? How about couplers? All the above, delton hartland, mth, and kadee additionally… oh and AML, accucraft, and all the other couplers. For standard gauge we needed three… H&Ls, Aristo Tite-locks and Kadee standards.
Hell, even the power blocks could have been standardized… LGB quality with keyed axles combined with Aristo’s primemover gearbox design would have been one hell of an unstoppable force. If needed, throw in USA’s floppy axle.
todd whittier said:
TOC or others. Any inside idea that someone else will pick up and produce the molds already in place? I just started buying 2 bay hoppers from Aristo and now they are no more. When LGB went down it appears that Newqukia (China) picked up their old coach molds. I know it’s not as finely detailed but I need some more of the 2 bay hoppers and to me a hopper is a hopper.
It’s to bad Aristo is going under. I think the balls been losing air for them for some time now. I can remember when they released new product info and we never saw the models produced. I know there was a lot of interest in the SD9 and the SW1 they announced. I don’t think making promises to build things and never releasing them did them any favors. I love the RS-3 and have a FA1 that I recently completed using USA trains motor blocks. I had to use the USA motor blocks to turn the model into a FA-1m. Even the Aristo motor blocks were scares. Sorry to see them go. But keep in mind Aristo had a lot of good rolling stock. Knowing how things go in China I am hopeful we will see the molds produced by someone else’s name.
Before someone pipes in and starts a made in the USA war cry, I am with you. However not much is made here anymore! I model 1:29 and the 2 big manufacturers are USA and Aristo. Now 1 is gone, so I am left with the other. Like it or not the stuff is made in China. I participate in this hobby for enjoyment.
Todd FYI the Newqida stuff didnt use LGB tooling per-say, there were several differences between the two brands, I have always believed the Newqida stuff came out as a result of the EPL burnout, EPL probably owed outstanding money to the Chinese manufacturer for contracted products that they couldn’t pay back, as a result the manufacturer retained the rights to certain toolings, namely what became the NQ stuff, the remainder of EPLs tooling that was in China but not subject to this contract was eventually returned to Marklin as they were part of the assets of EPL. It also explains why only 6 items have ever been issued under the NQ label, and those have significant differences, most likely due to changes in the production line machinery, but also the major change to battery powered RC drives, shows they are not direct copies of EPLs versions.
Newqida production run:
1: 2-6-2 Hartz steam locomotive, battery RC
2: ICE 3 car train, battery RC
3: 4 axle Passenger Car
4: 2 axle Tank Car
5: 2 axle Box car
6: 4 axle Flat Car
Hardly the “Barbarians At The Gates” the RBB was shouting about at the time
Sad to see the situation come to this, Any truth to the rumor that the Bachmann Peter Witt Street car actually started out as an Aristo product.
todd whittier said:
TOC or others. Any inside idea that someone else will pick up and produce the molds already in place? I just started buying 2 bay hoppers from Aristo and now they are no more. When LGB went down it appears that Newqukia (China) picked up their old coach molds. I know it’s not as finely detailed but I need some more of the 2 bay hoppers and to me a hopper is a hopper.
It’s to bad Aristo is going under. I think the balls been losing air for them for some time now. I can remember when they released new product info and we never saw the models produced. I know there was a lot of interest in the SD9 and the SW1 they announced. I don’t think making promises to build things and never releasing them did them any favors. I love the RS-3 and have a FA1 that I recently completed using USA trains motor blocks. I had to use the USA motor blocks to turn the model into a FA-1m. Even the Aristo motor blocks were scares. Sorry to see them go. But keep in mind Aristo had a lot of good rolling stock. Knowing how things go in China I am hopeful we will see the molds produced by someone else’s name.
Before someone pipes in and starts a made in the USA war cry, I am with you. However not much is made here anymore! I model 1:29 and the 2 big manufacturers are USA and Aristo. Now 1 is gone, so I am left with the other. Like it or not the stuff is made in China. I participate in this hobby for enjoyment.
Todd- I keep saying this on all the forums. Who holds and owns the tooling?
Several sources over the last…10 years or more have indicated positively who owns the tooling. One of the first to confirm was a guy who at the time worked for/with Aristo, and sat in on the meetings.
Now we wait, as within the next 90 days the announcement will be made.
Sanda Kan/Kader is not going to let their investment in the tooling go away…and most likely, since they seem to be hell bent on a monopolistic world domination of the model train manufacturing source, don’t think the tooling is going anywhere soon.
90 days gives Polks a chance to finish up, close the books, publish even more press releases, which in most likelihood will become more blameful of others for their failure…and give Sanda Kan/Kader a chance to get done what they have to do.
Now:
Factor in to all of that (and even employees of Aristo may not have the correct answer, so there is that bugaboo), to the entry announcement of Bachmann into the 1:29 market when they have never, ever done that before…at the nmra show in Atlanta just before this stuff hit the fan…and prior to that, one Stanley Ames was on this website asking for input on what folks wanted in Standard Gauge engines…and Bachmann has never made Standard Gauge engines in LS.
You KNOW (if you can think) he doesn’t ask unless there is a reason.
So, Bachmann had him ask about SG engines…then Bachmann announces SG trolleys in 1:29, then the poo hits the fan…it all comes together nicely, don’t you think?
TOC
Wow,
First lets boil this down to the basics. A manufacture of Large Scale equipment (a major one in my opinion) has closed its doors.
No matter the name on the box, this is not a good sign for our hobby guys. Wither you used Aristo products (I didn’t because it wasn’t in my scope of modeling) it really doesn’t matter. Loss of competition is not a good thing. This is what causes prices to soar.
As far as those of you who said, “I told you so!!!”…golf clap
It still doesn’t help the situation.
I’m going to ask a question that is going to get me flamed by a certain person or people and if Bob wants to cut it out then that’s fine…
TOC, based on all your comments on the manufactures of Large Scale Equipment, is there a product that you can honestly say you like? If there isn’t one, can you explain a product that you would like?
Jake Smith said:
Wow,
TOC, based on all your comments on the manufactures of Large Scale Equipment, is there a product that you can honestly say you like? If there isn’t one, can you explain a product that you would like?
ROFLMAO
Or as Hans would say 
sorry Hans
How can a curmudgeon like anything?
TOC The Old Curmy
cur·mudg·eon
kərˈməjən/
noun
noun: curmudgeon; plural noun: curmudgeons
1.
a bad-tempered or surly person.
I can probably answer that one for him, but I won’t. It should be empirically obvious to even the most casual observer.
Jake Smith said:
Wow,
First lets boil this down to the basics. A manufacture of Large Scale equipment (a major one in my opinion) has closed its doors.
No matter the name on the box, this is not a good sign for our hobby guys. Wither you used Aristo products (I didn’t because it wasn’t in my scope of modeling) it really doesn’t matter. Loss of competition is not a good thing. This is what causes prices to soar.
As far as those of you who said, “I told you so!!!”…golf clap
It still doesn’t help the situation.
I’m going to ask a question that is going to get me flamed by a certain person or people and if Bob wants to cut it out then that’s fine…
TOC, based on all your comments on the manufactures of Large Scale Equipment, is there a product that you can honestly say you like? If there isn’t one, can you explain a product that you would like?
Hang on. The doors aren’t closed. We still have 89 days.
And, do we really think the investment in design and tooling by the PRC factory is going to go away?
Possibly. If the factory wants zero competition for their Bachmann line, they could in a stretch bury the tooling, but I just don’t think so.
If you understand just a bit of PRC thinbing…my epiphany was this quote, related to me by someone who was in a meeting in the PRC, told this by the (then) head guy:
“You stupid Americans. Playing with toys while we industrious Chinese are busy making money”.
It’s all about money.
If the PRC factory thinks they can make money, they will do so.
At a much higher price than you are used to paying.
Do I like any line?
Since I keep saying I bought my last new LS item after the K…
John A. English is a good one. I’d buy more of that.
Scalecraft, and Lobaugh are also very, very good.
I have Scalecraft steamers that are 75 years old, running original gears and motors. Never had any gauge issues or fat flanges…
It really depends what you want in the hobby. If you lean towards whimsical, you’re set.
If you want a Mallet…and it’s a Meyer, you’re not happy.
If you want proper scale-to-gauge and you get something that isn’t…you’re not happy.
If wheel gauge, back-to-back, smooth trackage is what you want…you may not be happy.
Old LGB ran very well. I still have one LGB steamer on-shed, two in standby (stored, serviceable) and one which should be fine if I drag it out and check it over.
Everything else is Bach…and every one of those that can…has new gearboxes or chassis.
Does that tell you anything?
1:29 has never appealed to me…nor have diseasemals in an outdoor setting…so zero USA and zero Aristo.
TOC
Holy smokes… that Aristo Amtrak set I have new in the box might now be worth something?
Thanks for the answer. I appreciate that it was good information without the flame.
As for experience in dealing with Chinese manufacturing, I have dealt with them many times. Not in Model Railroading industry but in the business I’m in. It is no different, as far as manufacturing in my industry either. So I have a very good idea of how PRC does business.