Large Scale Central

Polk's GeneratioNeXt

General Discussion
#221

Thomas, thank you for the summary (see his above post) of the Aristo-Craft/Scott story.

Here’s my take on what we learn from your personal contact with Scott:

1 - Kader Co. owns the Aristo molds

2 - Kader used Lewis’ semi-detailed drawings and specs to build the molds. Sometimes modifications were implemented to reduce tooling costs.

3 - Lewis stated Kader was paid in full for all products ordered. There was “an extra 5-10% produced in case of defects or reorder. These over runs are what Scott is purchasing.”

4 - Scott now has a full time job working for a major firm.

Wishing Scott well since he has a full-time income and an understanding that there appears to be closure on the Aristo saga – at least for now.

Wendell

#222

Wendell, I have difficulty with #3, the number of the 0-4-0’s that have been sold alone seems to exceed 5-10% of the run.

Also, Lewis stated more than once that they only added ONE car to a 1,000 car run.

Everything else is plausible, but the statement you attribute to Lewis is in direct conflict to many other public statements he has made in the past. On the Aristo forum, you can search the “parts” threads where Lewis revealed he could not order loco parts by themselves, but they needed to be ordered at the time of the order for the locos themselves.

Regards, Greg

#223

Fred, sigh your very correct. The LS market took a beating during the recession and hasn’t recovered. It probably never will, at least not back to the level of participation we saw up to 2008. Trouble is that those still standing today are mostly the ones who were pretty well established before the recession hit and as such probably already well stocked train wise and not in need of much new stock, but that said, when/if something very interesting does come out, we still buy them. So there is a market, its just a lot smaller and more finicky these days.

#224

Greg, thanks for the observation and response to my summary of Thomas Provost’s input.

As you observed in your post above: “Wendell, I have difficulty with #3, the number of the 0-4-0’s that have been sold alone seems to exceed 5-10% of the run. Also, Lewis stated more than once that they only added ONE car to a 1,000 car run.”

As I noted, from the summary, it only appears the Aristo saga is closed. What is frustrating, at least in capturing any historical closure in the Aristo/Polk family’s large scale adventure, is the only person who could bring that personal closure is missing ---- and that is Scott.

Wendell

#225

Vic, you say they are not in need of much new stock. That could be true, I don’t know. But since 08 we have seen a few, very few, new items come out. The USA autoracks and new woodside boxcars/reefers come to mind, as does the emergence of Piko and its, well, stuff.

I am not trying to argue, but I am pointing out that even with a soft market, there is still a market.

#226

David’s yep that’s what I kinda said in my last post, we’re still buying but there’s a lot less of us buying. There is a market but it’s still soft.

#227

I’ve been avoiding posting on this thread, but I think I have to now. It amazes me just how much miss information gets thrown around the internet as fact. Just about everything that has been posted about mold ownership and design for both Aristo and USA is incorrect (I still have the cad drawings for the SW1 on my computer, they were NOT done in china) Everyone needs to take a step back an realize almost everything on this thread is wild speculation. One other thing, Bachmann and Kader are two separate companies Bachmann DOES NOT get a discount on Kaders price increases, sounds crazy but its true. One thing that is correct is there is no market left for most of large scale, most people wildly overestimated how large it was at its peak, and its a fraction of that now. As bleak as the future looks now, its probably worse than that in reality.

George

#228

Hi George. I’ve tried to be careful that yes, these is just my own speculations. I would love to see those cad drawings but have to ask. Are those drawings the 3D cad master drawing showing the intended final product? Or are they the cad machinist drawings used to fabricate the actual tooling for the injection molds. Those are two very different aspects of fabrication. Normally the tooling injection molds engineering drawings would be done by the manufacturers engineering staff. That’s why the physical tooling is usually owned by the manufacturer unless their contract agreements stipulated otherwise (read LGB). Just curious you know.

#229

A good factful post George which puts much into correct focus. I had mulled over mentioning something you once said to me when you were with Aristo. I am glad I didn’t because you post contains a greater depth of insight than the one comment you made to me.

#230

George Adams said:

I’ve been avoiding posting on this thread, but I think I have to now. It amazes me just how much miss information gets thrown around the internet as fact. Just about everything that has been posted about mold ownership and design for both Aristo and USA is incorrect (I still have the cad drawings for the SW1 on my computer, they were NOT done in china) Everyone needs to take a step back an realize almost everything on this thread is wild speculation. One other thing, Bachmann and Kader are two separate companies Bachmann DOES NOT get a discount on Kaders price increases, sounds crazy but its true. One thing that is correct is there is no market left for most of large scale, most people wildly overestimated how large it was at its peak, and its a fraction of that now. As bleak as the future looks now, its probably worse than that in reality.

George

George

Thanks for posting. I could not agree more.

Stan

#231

George, Can you elaborate a little more about the molds etc. I NEED TO BE CORRECTED IF I AM WRONG. Based upon my conversations with Lewis many years ago, I understood your drawings of the final product were sent to Kader who made the molds to fit their clamshell equipment. Aristro owns(ed) the copyright to the drawings but Kader, according to Scott, claims ownership the molds.

I made no comment about Charlies agreement with Kader as I have no knowledge of it. I also agree with you about market of LS trains. An issue we are all going to face in the future.

Again, my discussions with Lewis and Scott over several years. If I miss interpeted what I thought I heard, I stand to be corrected. Please do so.

#232

Thomas, I didn’t specifically mention you, or even this thread when I talked about misinformation its been going on since the beginning of the internet, remember all those rumors on the factory being closed? Dealers were usually the first source of the rumors. But, yes, you’re wrong. I don’t know what Lewis said, but either he was having fun with you or you misinterpreted what he said. The molds were cut and manufactured in China, but all the design was done at the end of the hall. We didn’t keep the two engineers around for their looks or sense of humor. As far as who owns the molds now, I have no idea. But I do know that when Sanda Kan was in a period of transition there were plans in place and assets on the ground in China (and red eye flights from Newark) to secure the molds. If you were talking to him long enough ago that production was in Korea I have no idea of the arrangements there, but all those molds (minus a few pieces) were moved to China, so I know what it looks like to me.

George

#233

Yes, please, I buy that Aristo has copies of the CAD drawings… and not being nasty: so what… the cost to make the drawings, and the 3d models (yes CAD drawings is a pretty generic term) was already spent… and does not alone make trains.

But, the molds… tell me that Lewis has the molds safely in his house in Florida… otherwise Kader has them…address this…

Many promises broken, and a lot of “miss information” [sic] from Aristo justifies the comments here… (I can produce the vehement denials from Aristo just 2 weeks before going out of business… so I would tread lightly here, there is PUBLIC evidence of this)…

Greg

#234

Greg, read my second post again, I have no idea who owns the molds currently, Aristo is gone so all bets are off. As far as broken promises and misinformation from Aristo, no argument from me, it was hard to sit in the office some times knowing what was being said officially. There were people on the payroll that were given the same denials. Someday I’ll write a book about what really went on behind the scenes there, but that time isn’t now.

George

#235

George, We are both saying the same thing. If you read my notes carelfully I noted the design work for the trains was done by you and others for Lewis here in the USA. BUT, the molds were manufactured by first by/for Sanda Kan and later Kader in China. That is what Lewis said to me. The only difference was Lewis’ comment about minor changes made by the Chinese for manufacturability. I see no difference in your version. Lewis never commented on ownership as the question never came up. The ownership issue was presented by Scott as per note.

I can imagine some of the horror stories inhouse. Lewis had a vision of a growing market that never materialized and was even shrinking. Thus, he had a lot of investment that he was not getting return on. From what I understand he was basically going from hand to mouth. With little reserves he could not eat design errors once they were produced. He went into denial with the public. Bad choice.

#236

Dear Mr. George Adams:

I am so glad that you posted. I do not know specifically who you are. I GUESS that you were in charge of product development at Aristo ?

Scott explained to me that the Sierra cars did not sell well. I would have preferred an open platform version of those cars. Maybe those would have sold better?

Lewis never produced a 1/29 scale version of the Virginia & Truckee 4-4-0 Genoa , Inyo and Reno. Why not?

Is there any hope of yourself developing a 1/29 scale version of the Virginia & Truckee 4-4-0 Genoa , Inyo and Reno standard gauge locomotives under a new firm ?

Is there any hope of the Sierra cars coming back into production with open end platforms?

There must be a market for indoor large scale product running on R1 and R2 curvces.

I think the major narrow gauge marketing error was in making models too large as in 1:20.3 narrow gauge scale thereby restricting their use to outdoors only.

What was the size of the largescale market place at its peak and how do the manufactures know what is the current size of the largescale market place? Why has the size of the largescale market place declined?

Is the bottom line that the new cost of plastic model trains has become too expensive for the required large volume sales?

What is the future of plastic largescale?

Thank you,

Norman

#237

Thank you George for your candid answers, it’s a relief to read what you said. Seriously.

Regards, Greg

#238

George Adams said:

I’ve been avoiding posting on this thread, but I think I have to now. It amazes me just how much miss information gets thrown around the internet as fact. Just about everything that has been posted about mold ownership and design for both Aristo and USA is incorrect (I still have the cad drawings for the SW1 on my computer, they were NOT done in china) Everyone needs to take a step back an realize almost everything on this thread is wild speculation. One other thing, Bachmann and Kader are two separate companies Bachmann DOES NOT get a discount on Kaders price increases, sounds crazy but its true. One thing that is correct is there is no market left for most of large scale, most people wildly overestimated how large it was at its peak, and its a fraction of that now. As bleak as the future looks now, its probably worse than that in reality.

George

Thanks George, and it is nice to hear from you again. The speculation that we have is, unfortunately, pretty much all we have to go on. As least until you posted. The people who really do know, aren’t saying much, and their lack of solid information leads to people suspecting there is more to the back-story then maybe there is.

Whoever owns the rights to the molds is going to expect to be paid for the use of them if/when someone does start up production again. Whether its Scott or someone else who restarts production. That adds another layer of cost and complexity to resurrecting the Aristocraft line.

So we are back to; Where is Scott? How is his company doing? When might we actually start seeing stuff produced out of those molds, not NOS thats been laying around. And, and, are some of the flaws going to be fixed when/if the stuff is made again?

Since a lot of information hasn’t been forthcoming, from those who actually do know, then we don’t really know the true and full answers then, do we? And that is a shame. Again, I want to see the line come back (preferably with the flaws fixed), and if Scott really does want to do that, I want to see him succeed.

#239

George,

Would it be possible for the Polks to dig up the CAD files for some smaller items (like motor blocks)? I wonder if there may be low-quantity plastic injection firms or even 3d printing houses that could be producing some parts stateside to keep things rolling at least. Obviously cost to the consumer would need to be higher.

#240

Well, that would be a great idea. At least Scott could sell some parts like trucks, and smaller parts that we do need. But the money is in the larger items, so that is probably where his focus is, or was.