I am getting 73 pieces of 4ft cedar 1x6 tongue and groove siding, thinking about laying them flat and putting my track on them, what do you think the best way to deal with them, paint / stain / oil based / or something else to deal with Cedar.
Thanks for the input, am looking for something that lasts.
Tom H
Hi Tom
I think you will want to support the 1x6 well end to end and side to side. Last year I built a “girder Bridge” using a piece of 1x6x36". I put sides on it, to make it look like a “U” glued and screwed for looks and to prevent warping of the 1x6. This Spring I got looking at it and it wasn’t warped but it did cup so the tips of the “U” were pressing in. I ended up clamping 4 supports on the underside and screwing them on. This clamping caused the bridge to snap and crack along its length. It has now been glued and repainted and is back in service.
The reason why I tell you this story is to caution you that even painted wood can warp in weird ways.
There is a elevated section on my RR where I took 2x4’s and screwed them together to form a “T” the track sits on top. These pieces are still in good shape after 5 years outside with no protection on them.
I think you need to support these pieces well. Given time I believe they will warp on the ends and cause you trouble. Maybe if you screw another piece maybe 10" long under each joint you will be OK.
Look at the endgrain.
If it’s straight, parallel and vertical you’re lucky; your quarter-sawn plank will remain pretty darn straight no matter what you do. If the endgrain is curved, like most less expensive cuts of wood, set the board so the grain arches upwards in the middle of the end, not downwards. This way the board will bow up instead of cup down.
Todd must’ve broken this rule so his board cupped. If it’s not going to stay nice and flat you at least want it to bow and shed water and dry out quickly rather than cupping and holding water and staying wet a long while.
Contrary to all the advertising hype from all the manufacturers and all the junk most people believe, any wood used outdoors will last far longer if you leave it naked.
Think about all those old grey barns you’ve seen in the country. If you were to look at those boards up close you’d be amazed what good shape they are in after all this time.
Meanwhile take a look at a few painted wooden windowsills on those neatly painted houses, and notice how many of them have rotted parts under or near the paint.
The reason is that any coating will hold moisture in the wood. That’s the last thing you want. You want your wood to dry out after every rain. The air and the breeze will do this for you, no charge, as long as there’s no coating in the way.
Don’t paint it, coat it, stain it, preserve it, waterproof it or apply any other coating to it. You and the chemical factories will lose any battle you take on. Let nature help you rather than spending money and time tryng to fight it.
Cedar, by the way, lasts longer than most other woods. It contains its own natural preservatives and bug repellants as well.
When it comes to the type of wood you’re using, you couldn’t have made a better choice. Leave it alone.
A guy with a neme like mine had better know his wood, and I do.
Thanks John and Todd for your input, I was also thinking about not putting anything on it and seeing how long it would last, I am getting it so cheap I dont care if it rots, I have trex I was going to use, but I thought this would be easier. Thanks for the tip about the wood grain, and Todd I do have support about every 2-3 feet i was going to screw the planks down.
I will take pics next week, picking it up tomorrow night, but going out of town, then Mothers day, doesnt leave enough time to work on it.
Tom h
The best way I have found to minimize cupping in woodworking is to rip the board into narrower pieces and glue them back together flipping the grain. That will release the internal stresses of the wood. Another mistake I have seen is failing to protect all surfaces, including the bottom and ends that may not be seen after all cuts have been made. Some finishes will sit on top of the wood as opposed to penetrating into the fibers which is what you want.
I hope that helps.
Enjoy!!
“It doesn’t hurt wood to get wet. It hurts wood to stay wet.”
Mr. Huisenga,
1:1 railroads used creosote to protect the wood in ties, trestle bents and grade crossing timbers. Usually accomplished by placing the wood in a retort with the creosote then applying a reduced pressure to the retort allowing the creosote to penetrate deeply. This not an answer for a “g-scale” railroad. Creosote is too dangerous to handle in a household situation. But an alternative does exist.
The wood can be soaked in used motor oil for one or more weeks. After soaking for a period of time, remove the wood and allow it to air dry in protected area until “dry” to the touch. This will result in a wood that performs similarly to the creosoted 1:1 wood. As a caution the wood has to be in its final dimensions prior to soaking in the oil. Cutting bulk stock after soaking in oil will open surfaces to moisture intrusion and cause failures in the performance similar to that of untreated wood
Respectfully,
Gordon Perrin
Plymouth, Michigan
Lakeshore Garden Railroad Club Portable Modular Railway Layout Master
Michigan G Gauge Operations Club Secretary
Gordon great information!
John, does that apply to all cedar or just red cedar?
Our Eastern (White) Cedar is very good too, but Western Red is best, but the prices lately are sky high.
We have been using Pressure treated 2x stock for years as roadbed. It doesn’t last forever on the ground, but it lasts very well as benchwork, built just like a deck.
The main difference between building a deck, and building our benchwork, is that we always make our “connections” between the 2x planks, using 18" plates rather than at joists, as is done in deck building. Our joints, using the plates, involve either 6, or 8 deck screws, and the plate is of the same material as the planks.
The plates also act to prevent warping, and make the joints in the roadbed very smooth for track laying.
We do have some PT roadbed that has been on the ground for over 15 years, and is still in good shape. It does seem to help if you use a wood preservative, such as “Pentox” on all cut ends.
We do not put any posts into the ground, instead we use deck blocks, or just patio stones. Most legs are PT 4x4 stock.
When laying the PT roadbed directly on the ground, we do not use any posts or anything driven into the ground for leveling, instead we just use old bricks, stones or anything we want to get rid of, then backfill under the roadbed with 1/2" crushed stone.
Frost is not a problem with this method, as the roadbed floats, and as long as you don’t try going cheap, and stick with the 18" plates (Of the same thickness as the roadbed) and enough deck screws, there will never be a problem with any joints.
John is very correct in pointing out the need to keep the grain “CUP DOWN”…
I would not suggest using tongue and grove stock, for roadbed or decking, as the very nature of the stock leads to warping, due to the thinness and the sealing nature of the tongue and grove joint, which traps moisture. I have known people that have tried to save money by going with Western Red Cedar in 1/2" thickness, and it was found to warp, and split readily in a short time when on a horizontal plane out in the weather. The 2x PT seems to be the best choice at least for us, over the last 20 years and more, in our location in Eastern Ontario, Canada.
Location does cause different problems with materials. Something that works great in the hills of Southern California, may look enticing, but is not recommended for those in more Northern or wetter regions. Frost and temperature swings of over 50 degrees, with rain and snow also cause grief…
Some people in some regions can use the cut and fill (With crushed stone) as their choice, and not have any problems…but when they say they can’t use Kadee “#1 Gauge” couplers on their equipment, because they won’t stay coupled; I wonder what their roadbed looks like…good STABLE roadbed provides more of a chance for FRUSTRATION PROOF outdoor model railroading…so choose wisely which is best for your location.
Before building anything, try seeking out other model pikes near you and look at what they are experiencing, and avoid their problems.
Yes we have also tried concrete roadbed, but found that it tends to be too permanent…just today we had to spend a lot of time removing some of it, that hasn’t been used for years, and due to my late father’s skill in mixing great concrete, it was a “Bitch” to break up, without a jack hammer. A model railroad that is allowed to grow, and changes take place. making the roadbed TOO permanent, is not always an advantage !!
The fact is, that we have probably tried just about every type of roadbed, over the years…so I’m not overlooking what others have tried. We have also found that having the solid wood roadbed has protected the actual track over the years. We do not use screws, and we don’t use the holes in the centre of the plastic ties. We use 3/4" flat head nails, and drill holes on each end of the ties where we are going to attach the track. Don’t drive the nails in too far; leave enough so that you can readily pull them out without damaging the ties. We don’t need expensive rail clamps, as the common rail joiners do the job well. We are of course, all R/C battery…
Use what works best for you…and have fun
Fr.Fred
Thanks Fred.
Jeff: Agreeing with Fred’s input, to answer your question about cedar. Cheers!
Thanks John.
I’ve used the 2 inch PT as Fr Fred suggests, cup down, with the 18 inch joint plates, and still had them cup up after one winter. I figure it is the cheap wood they foist on us for the PT in these parts.
Steve;
I have heard from others that the quality of PT lumber varies greatly. Around here we seem to get some good stuff, but I always take care in choosing the best out of the pile.
It’s called “Sorting” and some people tell me that some dealers won’t allow it. They get angry because some customers leave the pile in a mess, after sorting.
The Home Despot, and Rona stores around here seem to let you sort…Lowes has just opened recently, but I haven’t been there yet.
I also try to avoid any pieces where the grain changes from cup-up, to cup down, in a 10 foot length. I also avoid open knot holes, soft spots, and lengths with excessive knots.
I use 3" deck screws, not the shorter 2 1/2" size, just to get that little extra purchase, in each screw.
Clamping each joint before drilling and screwing, makes for better joints, and makes it much easier for a one person job. I have equipped my tool wagon with at least a dozen 6" C clamps…some are larger…quite often we clamp a large length of roadbed together, long before we hit it with deck screws. It gives us time to make adjustments, and plan ahead. They also aid in planning and cutting the curves. Very little of our planning ever gets into a detail paper plan. We do sketch some sort of an idea, on paper, while discussing ideas. We haven’t ever used the 'puter for any planning.
A good 4 foot level, and several 16 foot tape measures come in handy, and the latest tool is a short electronic level that lets you set the level for grades.
We try to keep all sidings on level, but if we have to, a passing track can be on a grade.
Fred