Large Scale Central

Ovals of track?

General Discussion
#1

“From the boys reaction…a point to point line would never do!”

Cale’s quote in the track and trestle forum is a perfect lead in to thoughts I had this AM. I was confronted with the same thought pattern in 1996 when planning the first part of the KVRwy.

Wonder why? And its not from just unknowledgable people, many long time members of well established model railroad groups feel the same way. Many times, I think it goes along with the unprotypical, high speed operations and/or constantly going past a station or water tower without stopping. Consider the live steam crowd that will time how much of a run they can get before running out of fuel or water, instead of considering having enough fuel and water to complete a run or a job.

I know there are many phases of this hobby and I will admit that I am not one that says it must be done one way or another. But I am constantly amazed with this circle thing and consider it the “Lionel Syndrome” from our childhood of watching the train go round the tree or in a large department store window at Christmas.

The solution at our house, and at many other layouts, has been that I look at the railroad as a point to point with a loop in the middle and my bride looks at a circle of track with a siding at each end. I guess it is all perception.

#2

My first layout was a huge 400 ft loop with two long sidings and several stubs for industries. When I had the club over, we ran roundy rounds because that is what they are used to. Operating a layout is too much like work. They just want to put the train on the track, sit back and watch it run, then socialize. That is fine, but I found it got very boring, after a while. When I was running it by myself, I would most often put a brick somewhere on the track, creating a defacto point-to-point layout.

On this new layout that I am starting, I plan a point to loop to point, probably with a third point somewhere off the loop across the gully when I can afford the track. I’ll have a folded wye in it as well, after Cheat Junction on the old WM, because that is how I will solve a problem of getting the rolling stock into the indoor storage. Once I saw that in the Summer 2006 “Classic Trains” it was “Eureka!” Problem solved!

Even my Lionel layout is evolving into a point to point. There may be a hidden stub that sneaks across for those times when I just want to… We will see.

SteveF

#3
Steve Featherkile said:
My first layout was a huge 400 ft loop... SteveF
That's great. For you that is. Over here in UK things are a little different, unless you are pretty rich.

My backyard measure 26 x 25 feet. I have to make-do with the biggest near-circle of track I can fit into it, and yet have access to my 8x6 foot shed at the bottom end, where I do all my reloading, and still allow a wheelchair-user to place locomotives and stock on the track.

Luckily, my yard has a slope to it which helps a great deal, and the far end is about 8" off the ground, while the bottom end is almost 30" high, and makes an easy load-on point.

I don’t invite anyone over to my layout - there isn’t any room.

And just in case you have the wrong idea about our standard of living - my 3-bedroomed house, with no garage, no front yard apart from a strip about 4 feet wide and 8 feet long, but with the front steps in it, was valued at $480,000 last July.

…and we live in the ‘low-cost end’ of our village here in East Anglia.

tac
Ottawa Valley GRS

#4

Seems to me you want to mix the two.

Operations is fun, but sometimes you just want to let it go and watch.

So I’d say, design for operations, but allow a path that wanders through most of the layout so you can leave one run.

#5
Terry A de C Foley said:
Steve Featherkile said:
My first layout was a huge 400 ft loop... SteveF
That's great. For you that is. Over here in UK things are a little different, unless you are pretty rich.

My backyard measure 26 x 25 feet. I have to make-do with the biggest near-circle of track I can fit into it, and yet have access to my 8x6 foot shed at the bottom end, where I do all my reloading, and still allow a wheelchair-user to place locomotives and stock on the track.

Luckily, my yard has a slope to it which helps a great deal, and the far end is about 8" off the ground, while the bottom end is almost 30" high, and makes an easy load-on point.

I don’t invite anyone over to my layout - there isn’t any room.

And just in case you have the wrong idea about our standard of living - my 3-bedroomed house, with no garage, no front yard apart from a strip about 4 feet wide and 8 feet long, but with the front steps in it, was valued at $480,000 last July.

…and we live in the ‘low-cost end’ of our village here in East Anglia.

tac
Ottawa Valley GRS


uhhh. What was that all about?

#6

Steve…

I used to get shot down with high powered rifles, everytime I talked like you do, about “Operations”. Especially over at the other place, and elsewhere.

It just shows that the hobby is maturing, when you can talk of “Point-To-Point” and not get flamed in the first reply.

…and Ric; my line was “Lionel Mentality”…boy did that raise their fire to the highest of levels. !!

#7
Steve Featherkile said:
Terry A de C Foley said:
Steve Featherkile said:
My first layout was a huge 400 ft loop... SteveF
That's great. For you that is. Over here in UK things are a little different, unless you are pretty rich.

My backyard measure 26 x 25 feet. I have to make-do with the biggest near-circle of track I can fit into it, and yet have access to my 8x6 foot shed at the bottom end, where I do all my reloading, and still allow a wheelchair-user to place locomotives and stock on the track.

Luckily, my yard has a slope to it which helps a great deal, and the far end is about 8" off the ground, while the bottom end is almost 30" high, and makes an easy load-on point.

I don’t invite anyone over to my layout - there isn’t any room.

And just in case you have the wrong idea about our standard of living - my 3-bedroomed house, with no garage, no front yard apart from a strip about 4 feet wide and 8 feet long, but with the front steps in it, was valued at $480,000 last July.

…and we live in the ‘low-cost end’ of our village here in East Anglia.

tac
Ottawa Valley GRS


uhhh. What was that all about?

Just Tac pointing out that not all of us have a 1/2 acre of land to build our empires on, thats all. All I have for my corkscrewed empire will be about 25’ x 11’, 1/2 of what Tac has. And I’ll have to import my own dirt to build it.

I planned my layout as a point to point, but its going to be built as a loop. Why?, so when I dont feel like messing with it I can just drop a train on it, and let it roll around while I sit in the shade on my big outdoor chair sipping my frosty.

#8

Fred,

I did talk about a point to loop to point, and about putting a brick on the loop…

I wonder if he was upset about the 400 ft loop comment and how he couldn’t do that in Jolly Old England. Heck, I can’t afford to buy the locomotives that he does at the drop of a hat, but I don’t take him to task for it. I had to save for quite a while to get that track, and then take advantage of a track sale…

I enjoy watching the train chase its crummy while I bless myself with Holy Water, just like the other guys. It just gets boring, fast.

I get odd looks from my friends here in the club, too.

Steve

#9

I’m currently building two ovals of track. Well, not exactly ovals, but the trains will pass by the same location time and time again. More like a Grand Prix, instead of Talladega.
What makes it different is the two loops have numerous bridges, canyons, cuts, fills, etc. Not just a couple loops on flat ground. Each loop takes it’s own way. meandering among the mountains and gulley’s.
Makes it less boring and more interesting.
You can sit anywhere on the layout and get a different view and perspective.
And watch the trains go round and round and round…
jb

#10

Please understand, I also have the required loop of track. In fact, I have 3 of them. It is to satisfy SWMBO and others that are not as interested in this hobby. But my question is why. Is it the idea that if the train goes by it is like the CSX train that goes through our town? Because if it is what excuse is used for the second, third and more times that it repeats the same course. Now with a loop to loop, at least it goes one way and then back the other. That can also be accomplished with a dog bone where the tracks are parallel for awhile. With that it is like a double tracked main line. Jon Radder has even shown an example of a giant loop around a yard. All protypical. I have also used amusement park ride ovals of track as a protypical form of operating in a loop.

What has caused this useless mental excercise of asking why, was a track plan in the latest MR that has a yard in the middle and industries at each end. A great mental exercise understanding the modeler’s reasoning, and his explanation of his operations was great. But the part that wasn’t mentioned, but there it was on the track planm, was the crossing that allowed it to be a loop. I didn’t mean to cause hard feelings or an argument, just a simple question or expalanation of why do we do this. Even a well know advocate of operations has an ability to run his track in a loop, but he only reveals it if you really ask. Sorry Buddy, I had to reference your achilles heal to justify my own loop operations.

I’ve got some more analytical questions like this, but I’ll let the embers of this one die, before I
raise another mental philosophy concern.

These aren’t serious guys. Just questions. Like when you pull into a rest area on the highway and you stare at the map, while your wife is still in the head. And right there is front of you with a small arrow it says, “You are here”. The questions is “How do they know?”

#11

…they are always following you, Ric…that’s why they know where you are…!!!

Yup; you got me…yes there is a “Continuous loop” built into the IPP&W…it just doesn’t show, up to most people when they look for it. AND…it does get used once in a while.

Around here after we introduced “Point-to-point” operations; everyone gets bored just running in circles, and never show up if there isn’t an operation planned.
We have these days of “Run what you brung”, where a formal operation is not planned. The guys all seem to want to run point-to-point even on thse days, even with the continuous loop being there to use.

#12

Friar,

I didn’t use your name. Your secret was safe. Why, oh why, did you reveal your compromise? Bruce would have taken the blame. You didn’t have to fall on your sword. Bob please delete Fred’s confession. It was not to be heard by us that are unwashed.

Sorry guys, cleaning and painting basement walls, I think the fumes are getting to me.

#13

…Ric

You know I’ll never fall on a sword…maybe a pick axe, or a broken holy water bottle…!!!

#14

Q. Why am I going to build a loop into what will otherwise be a point to point?

A. Because there are times when I just want to let the train run unattended while I do some gardening, or entertain some folks at dinner. After dinner, I will probably put that brick over that hidden stub that becomes a loop, and make it a stub again.

#15

My layout is operation based, but it is also a roundy-round too…and needs to be to be able to operate. It’s a dogbone with a (hidden) loop at each end. There is no point to point as it’s only one town. My mainline freight arrives in town, drops off the necessary cars, picks up any set outs and leaves. The switcher then has his work cut out for him to spot the cars and get the set outs ready for the next mainline freight.

#16

I feel “lucky” in that I think I have the best of both worlds when it comes to “loops” or point-to-point in that my M&CC RR is a point to point railroad whose northern terminal has a “working interchange” with the SP (UP) which is a 25x30 foot loop. Some days I don’t have time for a regular operating session so I just sit back and watch a psgr train or UP frt run around the loop, maybe even setting out/picking cars off the interchange track.

#17

I’ll take the blame. I confess. I have point to loop, but there is a track in there for continuous running. During ops sessions it acts as an interchange track.

#18

with my boys…ages 3.5, almost 2 and more to come…an opps like would be useless…kids want to see the train go into the tunnel and come out another one…I am building this layout (phase1) to keep them happy…in the future, I’d like to build a yard and go into some opps as we get older…but for now, we shall run circles…

cale

#19

If you’re asking why people like to just let the train run, even if it’s only a repeating loop, I think it’s because:

A. It’s the next best thing to having a railroad track running past your house, and being able to sit in your yard and watch trains go by.

B. A loop is the easiest way to achieve that goal. No automated switches or reverse loops to deal with, and no need for hands-on control.

I don’t know about anyone else, but my primary exposure to real trains is watching them go by while waiting at a crossing; or while standing along side a track somewhere watching trains snake through remote landscapes. I rarely see them doing all those neat “operational” things like switching spurs or making trains. I know that those things happen, but it’s just something I don’t get to witness very often. (San Diego isn’t much of a railroad town, which may be part of the reason for that.) So watching a model train simply run by is pretty close to what happens when I’m watching real trains.

Anyway, my layout is a folded dogbone loop so I can just let 'em run when I want to. But I do expect that at some point I will want to try my hand at operations. The grandkids might, too. So I’m trying to incorporate enough spurs and sidings to allow at least some operation.

#20

Two words: “Open House”

It’s also one of the reasons I have a Heisler. I like my other locos a bit better–I’m not a big fan of geared steam–but when it comes to worry-free operation, that loco never derails. I can leave it running for an hour unattended, and know it’ll still be on the tracks when I get back.

Most of the time I’m running, I do prototypic operations. That’s what the railroad was designed for–to emulate the various industries on the Shade Gap branch of the EBT. But there are plenty of times when non-railroad folks are over the house and want to see trains run. At that point, I set the Heisler on the track with a handful of cars in tow, hand them the throttle, and let them push buttons to their heart’s content. I’m free to chit-chat and tell them that “yes, the tracks stay out all winter” and other bits for which I wish I had a recording.

Later,

K