Saw an article in the Sunday paper. Very Fascinating read, so I Googled it and got a whole lot more. Then I thought why not for trains, we could probably do it better.
So just take a look Google on Corgi H2Go
Barry - BBT
Wow, that’s very cool. I love the idea of avoiding batteries AND track power. I assume you could also create the hydrogen by plugging it into the wall?
Mike,
No, the unit plugged into the wall uses the house current to create the Hydrogen from the water, the the “car” comes to the fueling station and collects the hydrogen, which it uses to feed the fuel cell on-board the car.
I don’t know what voltage we’re talking about as far as the Fuel cell is concerned nor how much motor is in the car.
Barry - BBT
that is neet Barry
What I would like to know is how much power is needed to run a loco?
If the kit workd to replace a 7.2v batter and I think I have read that guys are running 14v on the locos would you need two of the kits?
I think one could bash a box car or tender very easy and have a loco that runs on water.
here is the link I found with some of the info. http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/store/h2go.htm
I think I might have to talk with them. this kit is made to replace a 7.2 NiCad so two of them done right would give you 14.4v and that should run a loco.
Not sure it will run it for the 75 min they say they get on the R/C car but you never know.
Just to give you some comparisons as a base. My Bumble Bee Annie has my drive and RCS and Sierra sound.
The motor is a 19.1V Pittman and the battery pack is 14.4V and when charged full 2200 MAH which is this set up is about four hours. I noticed the link is a fuel cell supplier, so I think it would be up to them to provide the fuel cell which would work with your motor/weight combination and the MAH you need to have a satisfactory run.
Believe me, I am out of my element here, but I can design and build a drive.
Barry - BBT
I read an article about a year ago of hydrogen generators that could easily fit in a garage (it looked about 1 meter cube). It could “re-charge” your auto and when the auto is parked, it’s fuel cell could power your home, all on water.
The value to the consumer may have big oil anxious. You think?
Perhaps this extract:
“The hydrogen economy is a proposal for the distribution of energy by using hydrogen. Hydrogen (H2) gives off energy when it is combined with oxygen, but the hydrogen itself has to first be produced, which requires more energy than is released when it is used as a fuel.”
from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy
Might give food for thought.
Can someone explain to me what fuel is used to actually generate the hydrogen?
Is a hydrogen generator fuel efficient?
TonyWalsham said:
Perhaps this extract: [b]"The hydrogen economy is a proposal for the distribution of energy by using hydrogen. Hydrogen (H2) gives off energy when it is combined with oxygen, but the hydrogen itself has to first be produced, which requires more energy than is released when it is used as a fuel."[/b] from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy Might give food for thought.Can someone explain to me what fuel is used to actually generate the hydrogen?
Is a hydrogen generator fuel efficient?
Many moons ago, in high school Chemistry, we used electrolysis to produce hydrogen (and a match to POP it!)
See http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/index.html for a more interesting approach. If this works in Canada, it should thrive in Oz!
Hi Dave.
I guess I didn’t ask the question correctly.
I can understand how a small home based system could use sunlight to generate hydrogen during the day with that hydrogen stored for use during darkness. Seems eminently sensible to me.
I can also understand how hydrogen could be made in a stationary facility and stored for use by hydrogen burning vehicles. That is being done right now and could of course also use green energy to power the conversion process.
What intrigues me is the idea of a portable hydrogen generator for use in a mobile vehicle.
Has anyone claimed to have such a device and what fuel source could be used?
Hydrogen does have one annoying practical problem. They say, “Runs on water,” but actually, it just uses water to transmit the power, like a steam engine runs on water. The generator uses electricity to separate H and O from water. The car combines H with O to get the energy back. You get less power out of your fuel cell than you put into the generator. Hydrogen economy? So where do you get all that electricity?
Having said that, an electric motor is a pretty efficient way to run a car and a big power plant converts coal to electricity more efficiently than a gasoline engine converts gas to motion. You Aussies have LOTS of sunshine, and we have LOTS of coal. Might just work. Then there are the guys that grow alga to generate hydrogen from sunlight. Does it do the job more efficiently or less expensively? Somehow, they never ask that on “Brink.”
In the scale of toys, like our trains, it might be quite practical to use solar to collect power in the form of hydrogen all day for use when you get home. But then, there is return on investment. Electricity from the wall is mighty cheap. In Eldorado Township, where I was last dealing with electric bills regularly, we paid about 8 cents per KWH. Let’s see, my big train battery holds 72 WH, and probably takes 1.4 times that to charge, so that’s 102 watt hours, so it costs $0.008 to charge my battery from the electric company. Yup, that’s less than a penny. The battery itself costs lots more than the electricity I’ll ever run through it.
Tom your right. The battery cost more then the power to run it. You also have the cost of the charger to power the battery back up after running. I am trying to find out more on the H-cell conversion they talk about that should replace the battery pack. In my twisted mind I am thinking if done right one could fit everything in a box car run wires to the loco and have a fun set up. I’m not trying to save the world I just think this could work and at a cost that is not out of reason. I do not have the amount yet but from there other stuff I am guessing around 150.00 U.S. to set it up. Get bigger tanks and you can have a longer run time. All of it run on Sun power and this would be quite the conversation peice.
there are still a lot of questions I am trying to find answers to.
- cost of the converstion kit
- how long to make the hydrogen to fill the tanks.
- cost of distilled water.
- run time for a loco.
the truth is if you can only get say 30 minutes out of it and it takes 4 hours to recharge then its not worth it.
How ever if you can get 90 mintues out of it and the recharge time is about the same then that would work.
I would even like to find out if the solar power converstion can be done at a rate that would allow non stop running of a loco as long as you have sun and water?
Just think all you need is a box car and water tank for non stop day light fun. plus if it is a plug and run set up you can just change out your box cars at night and keep going.
IF it can be done for say 200 or less I would be willing to give it a go. Might need help from Barry and TOC but I think they would give me a hand.
I will let you know what I find out from them.
Geoff
The other thing they don’t tell you on Brink is that the hydrogen fuel cells give off water vapor as their exhaust.
Guess what makes up 98% of all “Greenhouse Gases.”
Yup, you guessed it, water vapor. This is not “Green Technology,” folks.
Not if it’s condensed before emission. Then it’s just water. If you used solar power to hydrolize the water, and then turned in back into water, there would be no additional water vapor added to the atmosphere. It’d be a simple matter to have the water condense and drip out of a drain pipe.
It’s not workable on a mass scale, I don’t think, if hydrogen is being produced by burning of fossil fuels–as Tom pointed out, there’s a net energy loss. I don’t think it will ever work for powering 1:1 cars unless solar power generation gets really efficient. But it would be an interesting way to power a “green” garden railway. Big solar panel, turns water to hydrogen, hydrogen powers fuel cells…
Anyone know the lifespan of a fuel cell? I assume longer than a rechargeable battery, but I don’t actually know
If you are going to run in the daytime why not just use the generated solar power directly?
No extra losses at all in the system then.
Or just use the batteries and R/C you already have and build a solar charger.
Ralph
Ralph Berg said:Or build solar chargers capable of generating power for the grid and tap into them.
Or just use the batteries and R/C you already have and build a solar charger. Ralph
For Tom --Or?
Is not one foible of hydrogen power is the extreeme pressure produced in the “hydrogen tank?” If my memory works, when applied to auto transportation, this pressure is toxic to those focused on automotive safety.
If accurate, how does this translate to application in a model train? My guess is much more pressure than with a live steam loco – say the Accucraft models?
Wendell
TonyWalsham said:And then you are back to track power with all of its attendant problems.
Or build solar chargers capable of generating power for the grid and tap into them.
TANSTAAFL
Maybe I’m missing something.
Iceland has a distinct and maybe singular advantage in being the world’s test bed for hydrogen in automobiles.
Iceland is a huge source of geothermal energy, which is used to create steam which drives generators to convert the water to Hydrogen. This means the electrical cost is lower than anywhere else.
The generating stations are located at the filling stations, they consume water and electricity, and produce and store the hydrogen.
The hydrogen is placed in pressurized fuel tanks at the “filling stations”, and just like the toy car the hydrogen is fed to the on-board fuel cell to generate the electricity for the electric motors which move the car. My point was couldn’t we do this same thing for our trains, a proper sized fuel cell on board the “battery car” replacement.
Gasoline and hydrogen are nearly equally volatile, the difference is that the hydrogen rises very rapidly in the atmosphere, where gasoline is gravity driven (for lack of a more involved description).
What is not addressed in all of this is the alternative of producing hydrogen to be burned in internal combustion engines (also possible, but I think less efficient).
Barry - BBT
Understood Barry.
The most important part of the way Iceland generates the electricity required to crack the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen, is that the energy used to generate the electricity is completely green.
No pollution.
Provided you can generate the energy in the first place without adding to pollution, then no problem.
I do agree Hydrogen would be a much faster way of “topping up” the on board fuel carried by a mobile vehicle such as a car, than waiting around for a battery to recharge.
So yes, given the above electricity generating caveats, I see no reason why we could not develop an on board hydrogen to electricity converter for our LS trains.
Whether or not it would be cost effective is another question.