Large Scale Central

New Technology for Trains?

General Discussion
#21

Wendell and Barry, in this case hydrogen is stored in solid state, not liquid. This is relatively safe, the pressure at normal ambient temperatures 20-25 degrees Celsius is 8bar, which is just a bit more than on a typical live steamer boiler and comparable with that in the butane gas tank of our live steamer locos (warm water heated, at about 60 degrees Ceslius) and also comparable with pressure of pure propane at the same temperatures 20 degrees Celsius.

(http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/docs/documents/1043/propane-butane-mix-vapor-pressure-diagram-pa.png)

Horizon Fuel Cell Technologies sell two types suitable for toy trains: 10l storage and 20l storage canisters: http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/store/10l.htm http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/store/20l.htm full info is here: http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/file/MH-10_Metal_Hydride_Canister_manual.pdf You can use these to power your internal combustion hydrogen engine, burn the hydrogen to generate steam from water or use a fuel cell to generate electricity to power your electric motor. Horizon Fuel Cell Technologies only support the last of these applications and have a range of cell packs. Most more powerful ones are quite large, but for a typical electric toy train this 20 Watt 11 cell pack should work quite fine http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/store/h20.htm On their R/C car http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/hobby_rc.htm they seem to have used 30W 12 cell pack http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/store/h30.htm - this one should be able to power a K-27! It uses 300ml H2 per minute at peak power so you could run 33minutes on one full 10l canister and 66 minutes if you have 20 liter canister. Of course you can combine more canisters to run even longer. The times obtained from their specification 300ml/minute and 10l storage per canister must be optimistic as in their R/C car they give 65-70min maximum run time for 30liter storage (3x10l canister). If you need even more power 100W is the next one they offer http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/store/h100.htm If you require higher voltage, you will need to put two or more of these cells in series, but you would need to provide plumbing to deliver hydrogen to all cells at equal rate just as is done on each cell pack (internally). For more info on the current state of the art in hydrogen technology please check for example this source: http://www.ika.rwth-aachen.de/r2h/index.php/Hydrogen_and_Fuel_Cell_Technology#Transport_of_Hydrogen Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi

Wendell Hanks said:
For Tom --Or? Is not one foible of hydrogen power is the extreeme pressure produced in the “hydrogen tank?” If my memory works, when applied to auto transportation, this pressure is toxic to those focused on automotive safety. If accurate, how does this translate to application in a model train? My guess is much more pressure than with a live steam loco – say the Accucraft models? Wendell

Barry Olsen said:
Maybe I’m missing something. […] The hydrogen is placed in pressurized fuel tanks at the “filling stations”, and just like the toy car the hydrogen is fed to the on-board fuel cell to generate the electricity for the electric motors which move the car. My point was couldn’t we do this same thing for our trains, a proper sized fuel cell on board the “battery car” replacement. Gasoline and hydrogen are nearly equally volatile, the difference is that the hydrogen rises very rapidly in the atmosphere, where gasoline is gravity driven (for lack of a more involved description). What is not addressed in all of this is the alternative of producing hydrogen to be burned in internal combustion engines (also possible, but I think less efficient). Barry - BBT

#22

I feel much better. Zubi has put down what I was tryiing to say. He did with grafs and that but it is what I have been trying to say.
Thanks zubi. Nnice ot know I was right.

#23
Zbigniew Struzik said:
for a typical electric toy train this 20 Watt 11 cell pack should work quite fine http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/store/h20.htm
Tony, could you see this energy source working in tandem with one of your radio controllers as an experimental setup?
#24

Hi Dave.
I see no reason why it could not work with any brand of R/C, except that 6.6 volts is nowhere near enough voltage for most large Scale model trains. It would require at least two units in series for most locos, and three units in series for bigger locos such as the AC SD-45 and -9 etc.

At 20 watts the current capability is marginal for even small diesels like a GP-9, certainly not enough for the bigger locos. That means you would have to parallel up packs to increase the wattage rating. 4 x for smaller locos and 6 x for the big locos. That would take a lot of space.

#25

TonyWalsham said:
Hi Dave. I see no reason why it could not work with any brand of R/C, except that 6.6 volts is nowhere near enough voltage for most large Scale model trains. It would require at least two units in series for most locos, and three units in series for bigger locos such as the AC SD-45 and -9 etc. At 20 watts the current capability is marginal for even small diesels like a GP-9, certainly not enough for the bigger locos. That means you would have to parallel up packs to increase the wattage rating. 4 x for smaller locos and 6 x for the big locos. That would take a lot of space.

Tony, H20 delivers 3A at 6.6 Volt, this is more than sufficient for an average toy train. At 1 Amp, the voltage is about 8 Volt so you could only run relatively slow with most locos. But I run my LGB Porter on 7.2 battery pack and this is more than sufficient!! With two packs in series one can reach 16V at 1Amp which should be OK for an average loco, of course 3 packs in series will deliver 24 Volt @ 1Amp.

(http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/online_pic/h20_01.jpg)

Current capacity is not a problem with these cells, just check the power curve above for H20. If one needs more current for a larger loco such as K-27, H30 should be enough with its 4.2A

(http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/online_pic/h30_01.jpg)

and if not, H100 providing 7.2A will certainly be enough!!

(http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/online_pic/h100_01.jpg)

What is evident from these examples is that lower voltage for electric toy trains (such as that on the Bachmann K-27) is easier to work with, as is the case with battery packs. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi

#26

I’d be a whole lot more impressed if they could harness darkness to produce electricity during the night-time that we could then use during the day.

IIRC the BMW hydrogen-propelled car cost around $1.250,000 and there was only one ‘gas’ station in Germany.

Not so cost effective, methinks

#27

For full size cars and such I think there is still a ways to go.

Now for the LS trains, the way I think Barry ment for this post, I belive there is something to it.
Having had a R/C car that on a full charge could at best git 20 minutes of run time. The ideal of getting 70 or more for a train is IMO worth looking into. I have sent a e-mail to the company and am waiting to hear back from them. I belive with a few changes and a little creative thought a H2O train would be fun.

I just now need to get a Batt powered Loco. :slight_smile:

#28

I was asked to comment on the H20.
I will stick by my comments.

Zubi.
Do you actually own any Large Scale locos other than the LGB Porter?
From my long experience with Large Scale (24 + years) I can assure readers that 6.6 volts is barely enough for most Large Scale locos to start moving. Let alone many LGB locos that bleed off the first 6 volts to power lights and smoke etc.
The Bachmann K-27 is a one off case. It is as a result of having incorrect gearbox ratios that 14.4 volts gives it a more than adequate top speed. Even so it will still only be a bit above a crawl at 6.6 volts.
Most other big Large Scale locos require at least 18 volts for acceptable speed performance.

I am well aware that the cells can be ganged together in multiples to increase both voltage and capacity but doing so requires a lot more space, as in volume, such that there will be precious little room inside most locos for anything else.
Even if you could fit three packs in average LS locos.
Plus, it would require more complicated plumbing for each cell.

#29

Geoff I’m really interested–let us know what you find out.

#30
TonyWalsham said:
Zubi. Do you actually own any Large Scale locos other than the LGB Porter?
Tony, About 25 electric Large Scale locos, but I mostly own much larger ones and in brass which does not have much (or anything) in the way of electronics. I also do not like the voltage threshold on the digital sound equipped LGB locos, but let us face it - once someone converts these locos to battery power, this electronics is probably removed. I gave the Porter as an example because this is the only one on which I use battery power. While I agree that 6.6 Volt is not enough for many larger locomotives, please note that the voltage on these cells is about 10 volt when current is at 1 Amp, which medium size locos mostly draw. Anyway, we all agree that for a higher range of voltage at least two cell packs should be connected in series. But the current should not be a problem contrary to what you suggest. As for volume, I also agree that it will be a problem, as is probably a relatively high price of this technology (as of today). In any case I am not advocating this technology, as I am more interested in playing with my environmentally unfriendly live steamers (of which I have as many to choose from as electric's;-))) Best regards, Zubi PS what's the problem with the K-27 gearing now? I thought we all agreed that it is correct for the motor used!!
#31
Quote:
I'd be a whole lot more impressed if they could harness darkness to produce electricity during the night-time that we could then use during the day.
I've made quite a few Dark Emitting Diodes over the years :D
#32

Zubi.

I am not criticising the concept as such.
Merely that by the time you start multiplying the number of power generators to get adequate voltage the space required will negate many of their advantages.

As to the K-27.
You claim the K-27 motor/gearbox relationship is OK.
Many don’t. Including me. We have come to the conclusion that it sucks. It will not climb even moderate grades with a load behind.
It has adhesion but bogs down under load.
Unfortunately you got sucked in by the Stanely Ames BS.
Those who agree with the belief that ratio at 14.5:1 is too high, and should have been 29:1 as it was originally supposed to be, merely let the argument with you lapse. As you now should do. Especially as you yourself admitted that you had not actually tested the K-27. Your comments were based on theory not actual experience.

#33

Tony’s point about the space the units take up is susceptible to measurement. Geoff, it would be interesting to know how much space the H2O units actually occupy. Photos of the units in relation to a loco chassis would be even better. Pressure’s on, mate!

Zubi, the definition of “sufficient” will vary, depending on how folks use their locos. Someone who’s happy with shunting puzzles on level track is going to require less grunt than someone who loads bricks on flatcars and multiheads them up a five degree grade.

#34

Please can we not re-start that gear ratio thread? I want to know if hydrogen fuel cells would work

#35

Dave Here is a picture of the H-Cell in a R/C car. The kit is to replace the Batt pack and fits in the space were the Batt would go. The fuel cans sit on the back of the car and the body fits over it all. It two of them would fit with ease in a box car, might even fit in a tender behind a steam loco. I guess that would depend on the tender size, but the box car is no problem. I am still waiting to hear back from them and if I don’t have something by mid week next week I will try again. Having talked with Barry 14.4v would work to run one of his conversions to a Bmann 10 wheeler. Given that some already use box cars behind a loco for the batt packs I don’t see a big problem with this. Please keep in mind that I am looking at this a some thing fun and a conversation peace and not a true replace ment to the batt packs all togather. I know if I can get this stuff I will have and keep my batt packs to put in when this runs out of power. I would do this because I do not know the time it takes to recharge the H-Cells and if at night there is no sun for the solar power.

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/geogeorge/_forumfiles/rc.jpg)

As you can see it doesn’t take up much space in the R/C car at all.

#36
Dave Healy said:
Tony's point about the space the units take up is susceptible to measurement. Geoff, it would be interesting to know how much space the H2O units actually occupy. Photos of the units in relation to a loco chassis would be even better. Pressure's on, mate!

Zubi, the definition of “sufficient” will vary, depending on how folks use their locos. Someone who’s happy with shunting puzzles on level track is going to require less grunt than someone who loads bricks on flatcars and multiheads them up a five degree grade.


Dave, the measurements for all the cell pack units are provided on the horizonfuelcell website, here is a brochure with all the H units http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/file/H-Series.pdf One H-30 cell pack has dimensions 80mm x 64mm x 46mm, you need to add the H2 storage canisters and plumbing of course. Yes, I agree that some folks may want to run faster and heavier and others are happy pulling a couple of cars at low speeds. The same is true when battery power is applied. But pulling power is mainly determined by current capacity of the source while voltage mainly determines max speed. If you are happy with low speed, these hydro cells seem to have a lot of current capacity, and you can choose larger ones - if over 4Amp for H30 is not enough you can choose H100 which is capable of delivering over 7Amp. I think that most folks will agree that it is better to power the motor directly by the power source through a controller, leaving additional things like lights or standby sounds out of this - a small traditional battery should be enough to power these. The threshold voltage approach usued LGB digital sounds locos which Tony mentioned, is only useful for track power in my opinion, in battery power version this would wastes precious battery resources so I think it is better to separate lighting + sound from the motor. Best wishes, Zubi
PS this brochure shows how neat the pack fits in the R/C car http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/file/H-cellBrochure.pdf

#37
Zbigniew Struzik said:
Dave Healy said:
Tony's point about the space the units take up is susceptible to measurement. Geoff, it would be interesting to know how much space the H2O units actually occupy. Photos of the units in relation to a loco chassis would be even better. Pressure's on, mate!

Zubi, the definition of “sufficient” will vary, depending on how folks use their locos. Someone who’s happy with shunting puzzles on level track is going to require less grunt than someone who loads bricks on flatcars and multiheads them up a five degree grade.


Dave, the measurements for all the cell pack units are provided on the horizonfuelcell website, here is a brochure with all the H units http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/file/H-Series.pdf One H-30 cell pack has dimensions 80mm x 64mm x 46mm, you need to add the H2 storage canisters and plumbing of course. Yes, I agree that some folks may want to run faster and heavier and others are happy pulling a couple of cars at low speeds. The same is true when battery power is applied. But pulling power is mainly determined by current capacity of the source while voltage mainly determines max speed. If you are happy with low speed, these hydro cells seem to have a lot of current capacity, and you can choose larger ones - if over 4Amp for H30 is not enough you can choose H100 which is capable of delivering over 7Amp. I think that most folks will agree that it is better to power the motor directly by the power source through a controller, leaving additional things like lights or standby sounds out of this - a small traditional battery should be enough to power these. The threshold voltage approach usued LGB digital sounds locos which Tony mentioned, is only useful for track power in my opinion, in battery power version this would wastes precious battery resources so I think it is better to separate lighting + sound from the motor. Best wishes, Zubi
PS this brochure shows how neat the pack fits in the R/C car http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/file/H-cellBrochure.pdf

Thanks for that, Zubi. I noticed the storage canister, and was hoping Geoff could comment on how much space the unit takes up when all the ancillary bits are included.

As I am the guy with the bricks, you now know why I bought a 20Amp transformer/controller.

#38

Geoff George said:
Dave Here is a picture of the H-Cell in a R/C car. The kit is to replace the Batt pack and fits in the space were the Batt would go. The fuel cans sit on the back of the car and the body fits over it all. It two of them would fit with ease in a box car, might even fit in a tender behind a steam loco. I guess that would depend on the tender size, but the box car is no problem. I am still waiting to hear back from them and if I don’t have something by mid week next week I will try again. Having talked with Barry 14.4v would work to run one of his conversions to a Bmann 10 wheeler. Given that some already use box cars behind a loco for the batt packs I don’t see a big problem with this. Please keep in mind that I am looking at this a some thing fun and a conversation peace and not a true replace ment to the batt packs all togather. I know if I can get this stuff I will have and keep my batt packs to put in when this runs out of power. I would do this because I do not know the time it takes to recharge the H-Cells and if at night there is no sun for the solar power.

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/geogeorge/_forumfiles/rc.jpg)

As you can see it doesn’t take up much space in the R/C car at all.

Thanks for that, Geoff - looks very compact. Since creating and storing the hydrogen gas, or more likely re-charging, is the issue, I’ll be very interested to hear how that works. Maybe we need a specialised tank car !

#39

From the video that there site has up it shows being recharged from the side. You plug in a gas hose and fill the tanks. I’m thinking with a little thought one could fit the refill some were easy to get to and you could set the station up on a siding and treat it like a stop for cole and water.
It would be kind of cool to make a open flat car that had the tanks as a load, hide the line to the H-Cells in a box car then have the power feed to the loco. That way you could increase the run time.

Good thinking Dave on that one. I hope they get back to me soon. I think i willl try again monday. The more I think about this the more I like the idea and think it can be made to work very well. Might have to have a car or two to hold it all but hay that is what trains are for right move freight around.

#40
Geoff George said:
The more I think about this the more I like the idea and think it can be made to work very well. Might have to have a car or two to hold it all but hay that is what trains are for right move freight around.
Geoff, If the loco body is large enough no additional cars would be required - I am looking forward to the first design of a "live-hydro" large scale engine!! Other than a dedicated non-prototypical design, I suppose the most suitable for conversion would be some existing body of a diesel or electric prototype. One could, and should(!) place the cells with their ventilators exposed for proper cooling just as is done on the real locomotives! That would look really good, IMHO, Zubi