I think I like the rubber idea. Then have no joints at all. Plus if even left plain at least it’s black. But I also like the idea of doing the ballast. So I can do the overhang drip edge that’s no problem and if I can build a bit of a gutter to hold it then great. I think I can make this work.
Any reason why I can’t use the pressure treated plywood under it?
Devon Sinsley said:
…Any reason why I can’t use the pressure treated plywood under it?
yes, various. humidity, moisture, dampness…
Pressure treated would work, but again, don’t use the thin stuff.
I would think plywood with a roofing material on top like tar paper or even better would be rolled roofing BUT won’t those dark colours absorb the heat of the afternoon sun and make whatever is sitting on top of it get really hot and possibly melt?
My first yard built in 07 was made out of plywood and painted and areas of it are now soft and will need a rebuild soon. My newer bigger yard is built the same way and I hope to get 10 years out of it.
As for ballast I thought I had a brilliant idea when I came across a big bag of aquarium gravel at a yard sale for cheap. My plan was to put a lip on the edge of the yard bench and sprinkle this stuff around but the lip was going to hold water on and when it did rain the gravel moved and fouled up my switches. If you use ballast be sure to glue it down.
A problem with painting or any impervious material on top is when you go to nail/screw the track down you will nail through your water tight topper. AS we all know water will eventually find a way in so don’t forget to seal those holes.
Devon
If you put the rubber membrane down , this should go down last, Then you can have your track float on the gravel base .
Install a lip perimeter with water letter outers this would hold your gravel.
Found @ Home Crapo
I think you could use pea stone ( no sharp edges to hurt membrane) the lip should hold it in.
This would be attached @ the outer edge, if you do include an overhang.
I think we are all getting on the same page. The PT plywood would only be the base, then covered with the rubber. Any exposed surfaces, like edges would be painted. PT ply I think will hold up well. We are a relatively dry climate and this wont have any exposed raw surfaces in direct contact with water. I will leave an overhang and a slope to shed the water. I like the idea of free floating the yard on the ballast so that I don’t have to screw though the rubber. I can use rail clamps to hold it all together. I have an idea for the drainage that I think will work using screen but the metal shelf bracket might work also.
One thing about this yard is that it is not hardly ever in direct sunlight. Maybe early morning and very late afternoon. Well unless you count winter. It is under a very large and shady tree that keeps it in the shade. So I am not particularly worried about it overheating anything.
Hi Devon, here’s a few related questions (even though you didn’t ask for them, haha!)
Seeing you’re in Idaho, are you concerned with snow loads? A 5’ x 10’ perfectly flat surface could retain quite a mass. For a non-professional example, a foot of compacted snow at 15 lbs / cu ft and 4 ft of new snow at 5 lbs (I’m only grabbing quick numbers from the net), that would be 35 lbs x 5 x 10, or 1,750 lbs.
So you’ll want to plan your joists and supporting structure accordingly, perhaps in view of local codes for snow loads on flat roofs, just so your work lasts. Picture a large table that needs to perhaps support half a car. Such a “table” might need 4x4 legs planted in the ground, at the corners and probably a pair in the middle of the 10’ span.
As the joists may sag over time, you may want to plan on some drain holes in the middle. Or, include posts in the middle. And maybe a slight arch, to ensure that there isn’t much ponding.
Due to the 5’ depth of the yard, that’s almost a full body length (for me at least, haha!) to reach to the far edge, if only from one side. I’m sure I’ve missed some details on the plan, so I’m having trouble picturing a cross-section. How many tracks? From the place you stand, what’s the elevation of the storage yard, and that of the roof-yard?
Is a section of the roof-yard (closest to you) hinged upwardly for access?
Final question, is there any way to create a structural sloped roof over the area, using common building materials, to take the snow load, shed the rain, and perhaps give you some shade? Like an awning or lean-to?
Best regards,
Cliff
PS, for load / structural purposes, you might see this as a deck (vs. a roof), with 5/4 or 1.5" thick planks, and a membrane roof product such as has been suggested. The plywood will most likely delaminate, the main question is when the glue will let loose.
In other words, instead of plywood, you might want to consider treated 2x’s. For example, our local HD has 2x8x10’ at $11. Laid length-wise, you’d need 6, or $66. Ok, another 2x4 to make up for the gaps in the 5.5" wide 2x6’s, call it another 6, so $72. A 3/4" sheet of marine-grade plywood, at the same store, is $70.
CJ
OK Cliff I will see if I can tackle all your questions. First, the overall design of this thing has no track in the cabinet only on top, no reason for a hinged top. There are doors on the side but this is strictly storage. No regular access. It is accessible from both sides and even the ends. A total of seven tracks. The height is 30 inches, well now it will be about 31. So the reach is 30" to center. The layout of the tracks makes a difference for usability. There will be two tracks that will serve as a guest staging area and well within reach. The next two tracks will be an enclosed engine house. This will have the furthest reach. The engine house will have a hinged roof and a fold down wall for access. I realize this may be a bit of a reach but I will have to manage. Then accessed from the other side will be a set of three tracks that will make up the car yard. these tracks will also be in easy reach.
Snow load. Very, very seldom do we get even a foot of fresh snow. With 2X4’s sheeted with plywood I am not too worried about snow load. But I have given it some thought as 5’ is a bit of a span, and even without snow will likely sag. It would be real easy to but a beam across the the center and that would help with the sag. This is a good time to do it. So thanks for bringing that up. Maybe I will even put in two cut the span way down. Cheap and easy insurance. If snow does pile up on rare occasion then I can always go out there and rake it off.
This is no longer dead flat. I have crowned it down the center lengthwise. It has a 1" rise in the center and slope out in three directions. I will use pressure treated ply and rubber. If not water gets to the PT ply I would think it would last quite some time. Not sure why wit would de-laminate, Being pressure treated I would assume it is made for at least damp conditions and this should stay dry except moist air.
Thanks for the explanation Devon. I had interpreted your initial post about storage (you mentioned cars) as involving tracks in your cabinet. So that clarification, along with your two-sided access, alters the picture in my mind quite a bit, haha!
About the treated-ness of the plywood. I’m pretty sure it’s only arsenic they pressurize into the wood, and only to make bugs die if they eat it. Someone will correct me, because I’m not terribly savvy here, but I understand that it’s not treated against moisture or rot. Just bugs. And the glue can let go.
However, as you say, and aside from moisture trapping, a rubber top should do wonders. If you can track down products used on exposed balconies in your region, maybe they will suggest useful details and techniques.
Looking forward to seeing your progress, and best regards,
Cliff
PS, oops, just saw your pics & design on your “Building the CR&N Deadline:July 2017” thread, now I get it, sorry.
Cliff Jennings said:
About the treated-ness of the plywood. I’m pretty sure it’s only arsenic they pressurize into the wood, and only to make bugs die if they eat it. Someone will correct me, because I’m not terribly savvy here, but I understand that it’s not treated against moisture or rot. Just bugs. And the glue can let go.
Cliff,
Thanks for the heads up. It made me check into it. According to Home Depot it is bug, rot, and fungal decay resistant. It is designed for exposure to the weather including untreated in the vertical. Which tells me as long as it doesn’t have standing water on it it should be just fine. If it can handle direct exposure then my application should be OK I would think.
From their site “Ideal for a variety of applications where plywood will be exposed to the elements. Can be used in vertical applications when left uncovered. Great for barns, sheds, playhouses and swing sets”
Not sure of your total height issues, use a double roof system, top one holds a system to let your water go through to a water proof system underneath.
I like the rubber membrane system or my thinking would lean towards a ribbed steel like on metal buildings, with the ribbed steel you could set the system that the track and ballast is on, it could all set on top of the ribs the water goes through to the bottom of the ribs and flows out, either end.
Two pieces of ribbed steel, they are 38" wide covers 36", Look at Richard Smiths elevated railroad system, in Oregon, a great technique.
The steel is light weight, made for flat roofs also, and runs about 60-80 dollars per square. you need 1/2 square.
And easy to work with, with the basic tools.
Dennis
Dennis Rayon said:
Not sure of your total height issues, use a double roof system, top one holds a system to let your water go through to a water proof system underneath.
I like the rubber membrane system or my thinking would lean towards a ribbed steel like on metal buildings, with the ribbed steel you could set the system that the track and ballast is on, it could all set on top of the ribs the water goes through to the bottom of the ribs and flows out, either end.
Two pieces of ribbed steel, they are 38" wide covers 36", Look at Richard Smiths elevated railroad system, in Oregon, a great technique.
The steel is light weight, made for flat roofs also, and runs about 60-80 dollars per square. you need 1/2 square.
And easy to work with, with the basic tools.
Dennis
Dennis,
I am liking this idea tons. It will solve a ton of issues. I can slope the roof two ways instead of three. I have some plastic corrugated roofing just needing a purpose. That would save me considerable. I can use the strips I have in place. that would solve all my water proofing issues. Then the second roof could darn near sit on the peak and if I use 3/4 thick PVC boards that would only raise my overall layout about 3/4 of an inch give or take. I am at 30.5 right now so whats another 1". Then I can do as Ken did with his bench and use the PVC as stringers and then screen to hold the ballast. Yes this is a good idea.
Devon Sinsley said:
According to Home Depot it is bug, rot, and fungal decay resistant. It is designed for exposure to the weather including untreated in the vertical. Which tells me as long as it doesn’t have standing water on it it should be just fine. If it can handle direct exposure then my application should be OK I would think.
That’s great to hear, Devon.
Full steam ahead!
Devon,
as quick, as you build, you should do everything possible to evade the possibility of a future rebuild.
so i would strongly advise, to use solid wood instead of ply.
even tongue and groove ceiling boards are much better than the best maritime quality plywood.
i have built many things over the decades. even indoors in a dry climate plywood holds about twelve to fifteen years max., before it gets weak.
and outdoors, if you do not paint it at least every second year, most likely you will have to replace it after five to seven years.
and a rubber cover does help against rain, but it traps moisture between rubber and ply.
and, last not least: you can’t even burn old plywood, thanks to the fumes from the glue.
i rest my case.
ps: i do use a lot of plywood for my indoors layout.
but i know for sure, that my wife will dismantle the layout after my death. so it has to serve for five to ten years max.
Korm Kormsen said:
ps: i do use a lot of plywood for my indoors layout.
but i know for sure, that my wife will dismantle the layout after my death. so it has to serve for five to ten years max.
Nice revenge!
My sawmill and feed and grain building were made with plywood. They are the oldest buildings on my railroad. The saw mill was in ground contact, a no no, and the termites had a meal out of part it. But I was able to salvage most of it and its still standing. I think I built it in 2004. The Feed and grain building was built with the railroad in 2002, since it houses all of the electrics for the railroad. So, properly maintained, plywood can last a long time outside.
I am liking this idea tons. It will solve a ton of issues. I can slope the roof two ways instead of three. I have some plastic corrugated roofing just needing a purpose. That would save me considerable. I can use the strips I have in place. that would solve all my water proofing issues. Then the second roof could darn near sit on the peak and if I use 3/4 thick PVC boards that would only raise my overall layout about 3/4 of an inch give or take. I am at 30.5 right now so whats another 1". Then I can do as Ken did with his bench and use the PVC as stringers and then screen to hold the ballast. Yes this is a good idea.
Devon
I would strongly consider the use of the steel ribbed metal for the underneath waterproof support, verses plastic corrugated roofing. My thought is you might have the fiberglass panels used for sky-lighting, IF it is, it is very brittle, and not good to put screws in the bottom of the rib, All corrugated sheeting must have fasteners on the top, Ribbed metal uses fasteners in the bottom using neoprene washer screws. Also if you place all the yard on top, you don’t want a leak underneath, that you can’t get to. The metal will be much more stable and you can fasten your pvc material into the steel ribs on top, There are 2 different screws, one for fastening into wood, and one for fastening into metal.
Good to plan like you are
Good luck
Dennis
Dennis Rayon said:
I am liking this idea tons. It will solve a ton of issues. I can slope the roof two ways instead of three. I have some plastic corrugated roofing just needing a purpose. That would save me considerable. I can use the strips I have in place. that would solve all my water proofing issues. Then the second roof could darn near sit on the peak and if I use 3/4 thick PVC boards that would only raise my overall layout about 3/4 of an inch give or take. I am at 30.5 right now so whats another 1". Then I can do as Ken did with his bench and use the PVC as stringers and then screen to hold the ballast. Yes this is a good idea.
Good to plan like you are
Doing as Dennis suggest I will eliminate most all of concerns about materiel, leakage, and rot. We could argue PT plywood durability and whether it can last but it is wood and it does rot. I figure I have min 30 good years of railroading. I don’t like just throwing money away but a solid investment in longevity is worth the expense (slows down progress though). And the yard cabinet needs to last as long as it can between rebuilds. So while everyone likes to pick on me for overthinking, well I think just believe that like spending money and doing it right its better to overthink then do it a second time because I just threw something down. That wastes time and money.
So i think at this point Dennis has come up with the best plan. And it won’t cost as much as any other if not be cheaper. I am glad someone out there appreciates my planning.(http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)(http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-tongue-out.gif)
when you are looking at rubber membranes, look at the self sealing roll roofing, it has a tar back that heated up glues itself at seams and seals nail penetrations,just like all asphalt shingles have a strip of tar that the sun heats up and glues the ends down and it is sturdy enough to handle whatever ballast you put on top of it for trackwork. My patio roof is rolled roofing , with ballast looking granules, all you would have is a couple of black stripes where you seal the overlap.
I agree think this trough and do it once, it will last a long time. As far as the 2x4 s that are holding the top up 5’ long should not sag, if you are worriead about that add another one like every other space to help carry the load.
