Large Scale Central

My Track Power Experience

Electronics Power and Sound
#21

Warren,

You made me get the atlas out to see where Spokane was in relation to Kirkland. Are you about 3 hours away? My question is prompted by your statement, “Operating isn’t very popular here…” and the use of trailing cars.

I guess distance is all a matter of perception, but I think you are in “a hot bed of operations” amongst large scale trains.

Not to challenge track power, but to me onboard radio control battery operations is very popular in your part of the world. You’ve got NWRCS in Kirkland, Washington and Battery Backshop in Tigard, Oregon. Different companies and different products, but both with single unit onboard installations.

#22

Both of those places are 300 miles away :frowning: . And yes there are a lot of people over there that are battery power and do ops. But that’s a whole different world and with gas at $3 a gallon regular trips over there are out of the question. Spokane is rather isolated in that there are no other major cities, or even large towns close at hand. Our economy, and even the people are entirely different than the Seattle area. You might as well compare us with New York City. Most of the Garden Railroaders here are content to watch their trains chase their tails. Their idea of Ops is to put the train on the track, grab a cold beer and watch. :rolleyes: Steve Featherkile is also interested in ops and to get the knowledge he wanted he joined the local HO club. Unfortunately, rumor has it that he’s moving out of the area… :frowning: I see what other clubs do around the nation and I’m just plain jealous. Our local club is mostly a social organization with a train theme rather than a train organization that socializes. Part of the problem is we need some young blood. We are definately the Geezer Guage Society.

Feeling very much alone in Spokane,

Warren

#23

I use both track power and Battery RC. At this stage of the game, it would be quite an undertaking to convert all of my existing locomotives to Radio/Battery power, and the railroad was designed with the idea that it would support track power, so we’ll keep using it. On the other hand, I now have some locomotives that are Radio/Battery, and they work quite well also.

Here are my observations about running both, on the same system.

First of all, I should make note of the fact that my railroad is indoors, so that weather is not an issue. The rail is all Nickel Silver, which was expensive, but looks good, and does what I want it to do. So far the only cleaning issues I’ve had involved the avalanche of plaster and debris from above on one section when contractors remodelled the bathroom upstairs. Otherwise, the track powered trains do pretty much as they’re told, and I don’t spend any time cleaning track. If I did, I would be frustrated in a HURRY… I built my last railroad (also indoor) from brass track, and had to clean it constantly even INDOORS. If I build an outdoor component, it’ll be for self contained power locomotives (battery, live steam, etc.) only, as I can’t imagine trying to get that much track electrically clean every time I wanted to run.

Next … while my track powered trains do run, and run, and run, at the moment they can only be controlled from one place. This is because I haven’t got any wiring done for walkaround throttles, and there is only one control location on the railroad. To be sure, the control station is next to the yard, but given the size of the railroad, particularly once the scenery is in place, it’s going to be hard to stop and switch cars, or even run a meet manually without a camera in the engine, or someone on the ground to yell “STOP.” There’s also no provision for controlling the sound system from the control station, so it follows the pre-programmed whistles and bells that a Sierra is set up with. Effective switching or set out, or meets with the track powered equipment is going to require quite a bit of wiring so that an operator can select and control trains in his area from someplace other than the main panel. Again, that’s always been part of the plan… but I wonder sometimes if there might have been a simpler way.

My battery powered, radio controlled trains can of course be run from anywhere in the room. You can follow the train around, or take a post on the stairs and run it from a bird’s eye perspective. You can blow the horn, ring the bell, stop, start, reverse with little regard to what anything else on the railroad is doing, beyond, of course, avoiding a collision. The avalanche, the temporary power interruption caused by installing two “dead frog” switches in the mainline, the tracks in the yard that I haven’t had time to hook up yet… all no problem for the Battery equipment. Of course, you do have to charge it, but then I’ve not run into a situation yet where I wanted to run something and nothing was on charge. And… if it were, there’s always the track powered stuff.

I want to include some automation of the railroad. While this flies in the face of all the advantages of walkaround direct “in cab” control (which is a trademark, I understand…) of trains, on the days that I want to run the railroad as a whole (due to lack of other operators, or simply a desire to switch hats and be a railfan) it will be nice to have trains that can respond to signals, or be “programmed” to do various things at various places. My knowledge of DC wiring will lend itself nicely to having my track powered trains do this… and when my wife decides to have her 3rd graders over for a special event, or folks drop by who don’t necessarily WANT to be an engineer, it will allow me to run a couple of trains at once without worrying about a disaster of Addams Family proportions. The Radio/Battery stuff would be harder to do this with (though not impossible) and this kind of operation really doesn’t use what Battery / RC does best.

So … I think I have the best of both worlds. I can run on automatic, or operate from as close to in the cab as one can get. I have all kinds of flexibility in the combinations of the two, and I have one to back up the other. Guests can bring track powered stuff OR battery equipment, or, I suppose, even live steam (though coal indoors…no!) and they’ll be able to run.

That said …

If I had it to do all over again, from the day I bought the Shay, and didn’t have anything else large scale except an old LGB starter set from 1983 … I think I’d go radio/battery. Certainly it’d take awhile longer to build up the roster, as each locomotive would have to be equipped with the power system, but I could run Aluminum track, and skip the wiring, and buying the power supplies, building the control panels, etc. I could get on to the railroading right away, instead of spending all the time I’ve spent doing power and wiring, and would never have to worry about blocks, short circuits, or isolating trains from each other. I know when the Bachmann K arrives, it’ll be battery R/C because I want to be able to make it do everything its 1:1 sister does, and I want to run it, personally. I have another potential R/C locomotive in the pipe as well… I’m sold on the idea. Does it mean I’ll never have another track powered one? No … since I do have the capability, some locomotives will be track powered, and will be very useful that way. But if you can get in early on the R/C battery side, do… particularly if you’re operations minded, and prefer your trains at the engineer level instead of the superintendant level (both of which have their merits.)

There’s no war involved, or needed. It’s really more a function of what you want your trains to do, and how to best accomplish it. I’m lucky in that on my railroad there’s more than one possibility.

Matthew (OV)

#24

Warren,

I didn’t know or even think that you could do it every week, but a visit every once in awhile will improve your knowledge, enforce what your thinking and allow you to perfect your skills. 10 Years ago, Dave Goodson and Fred Mills were helping me get started, outside. Both are good friends and certainly great supporters of this hobby and operations. Don’t feel alone about the guys watching trains run in a circle, its not uncommon and certainly is part of this hobby, but there can even be some operations in that.

Mathew,

If you have your axles isolated on your battery powered units, you can run the battery power right with the track power and use the one to assist the other. The inside portion of the KVRwy is mostly track powered, but we still use the battery powered engines in that area. They work good together and it allows you to do things like wyes and reverse loops without special track work or wiring.

#25

Battery Backshop was in Tigard, Oregon. Changed ownership and moved further down the state.

Cheers,

#26
Ric Golding said:
If you have your axles isolated on your battery powered units, you can run the battery power right with the track power and use the one to assist the other. The inside portion of the KVRwy is mostly track powered, but we still use the battery powered engines in that area. They work good together and it allows you to do things like wyes and reverse loops without special track work or wiring.
That's the idea exactly. I have the cab light hooked up to the track pickups with the idea that when you're running a battery engine in an area where the track power is on, you'll know.... this will also provide the requisite resistance for any track circuits (signals, crossing prot. etc) that may pop up. It's already entertaining to be able to run both together, and independantly.

Matthew (OV)

#27

Darryl,

“Battery Backshop was in Tigard, Oregon. Changed ownership and moved further down the state.”

Been along time since I’ve communicated with them, but they treated me right and I’d recommend them to anyone, but I’ll now qualify when I last had them do something for me. They put a Locolinc unit back together for me, that was very farkled.

Mathew,

Your idea of the cab light is certainly something I haven’t heard of or thought of, but it sounds like a great idea.
I’d say I would put that on my list, but my list is so long that I’m already writing sideways in the margins and my todo’s have todo’s. So I’ll just say “great idea”.

#28

"If you have your axles isolated on your battery powered units, you can run the battery power right with the track power "

I use this also but with reverse loop useage a regular part of switching cars to various sidings its a real PIA. I like it for lighting the passenger cars that I run but running metal wheels across gapped rails wreaks havoc with track power.

If I make another gap a short distance away from the first will that solve the problem of the metal wheels shorting out the track power?

Andre’

#29

Andre, if you have lighted cars etc that get their power from the track you have to observe the same rules as you would with a track powered locomotive. If you have battery powered locomotives and the cars are also lit by battery power then a small section of dead, insolated track, an inch on each rail would be enough, would stop the sparking as you cross into a different block on a reverse loop. It would work like the plastic frog in a turnout.

Warren

#30

Warren , I hope I haven’t misunderstood what you have said , but I would like to add a comment here to clarify things .
If you have a vehicle , especially a carriage , picking up power from the track AND it has two-bogie pick up , both bogies will be live as long as one is being powered . This live feed could go to a supposed dead track nearly a carriage length away .
If you think I am stating the bleedin’obvious , good for you , you already know the problem .
If this is a new one on you , I am glad to have helped .
Just a reminder–
A metal wheel will carry power from a powered track to an unpowered one for the brief instant that the wheel is bridging the gap . Four bridgings per car length . Long train , lots of unintended shorts , may be power breaker pops . Something to check
Metal wheels carrying power to lighting will also carry power to anything in contact with the light circuit , this usually means the other bogie on a 8 wheel carriage .
We now know that the power can go to the next isolated section because of the carriage wiring , it will go through the next carriage in train the same way . The further the leading carriage gets past the supposed break , the further your unintended powering goes .
Too laboured a point ?
Well , if you know about it already , yes . But I bet somebody reading this will say to himself " Oh dear , never thought of that "
Now think of this as well . This unintended transfer of power may be spread across a set of points .
So if you notice an engine on a “dead” track section twitching a bit , try solving the problem with the above in mind .
If you are wondering how the carriages get on to the unpowered section , the loco could be battery powered .
I now have given the “batteries solve everything” mob an opener for the usual advertising . I run battery and live steam in conjunction with power track , so have to be aware of the problem .
Total dead trackwork would solve the problem , no argument . Lunch time . I’m off .

#31

Andre,

You asked - "If I make another gap a short distance away from the first will that solve the problem of the metal wheels shorting out the track power? "

My gap is about 24 inch long of dead track between blocks. The battery powered engines traverse this area, but the track powered units are captured in their block. It doesn’t impact me, because I set the railroad up that way. What became a concern was when a whole lot of people started setting up battery cars for trailing behind an engine with a switch that gave you the option of track or battery power. Without absolute isolation of the power from the axles, you have a chance for carrying the power from one block to another through the power trucks (they aren’t isolated from on set to the other) or through trucks that pick up power from the track for lights. Almost all of my lighted passenger cars and cabooses are battery powered.

#32

Mike, to repeat what I started off with:

Quote:
Andre, if you have lighted cars etc that get their power from the track you have to observe the same rules as you would with a track powered locomotive.

I think that covers the problem quite well. The small gap will only prevent metal wheels from sparking as they cross the gap, and only needs to be long enough to prevent a wheel from touching both sides of the insolated rail at the same time. This way you can run your track powered trains as you would normally, observing the blocks and reverse loop polarities. At the same time your battery powered trains will work fine with power to the rails…But the battery powered train has to be totally battery power…locomotive, all cars and all lights and other devices that reqire electricity.

Warren

#33

Warren , I have no wish to labour the point , but what “rules” are you referring to ?
And are you not in agreement about power carry over via two axle bogies and internal wiring to lamps ?
I think your term “sparking” is misleading ,sorry . It implies almost instantaneous action , not continuous .
We may actually be trying to say the same thing , but sparking is what a spark plug does . Also known as arcing .

#34

I think the dead section of track has to be way longer than one inch.

You are trying to keep a powered car from creating a short circuit. So suppose you have a 33" long USAT passenger car, picking up power from both trucks.

If the trucks pick up power from both “sides” of each wheelset, having any wheel of one truck on one polarity and the other on the other polarity will cause a short.

Your dead section of track needs to be as long as the longest “wheelbase” of power pickup for any car.

In the scenario above, it needs to be about 33 inches.

There is basically no practical way to keep most of the track powered and not follow normal powering techniques for reverse loops.

Regards, Greg

#35

Greg , I agree , but add a few cars and your new live rail will be the length of your train .

#36

If I chose not to run the track powered items across that gap where the power reverses I’d be fine. As long as none of the stock that went thru those sections had the ability to do anything other than short across the gap. Which would be dealt with by the longer, maybe one inch, isolated section.

But then why make the one train restricted to just roundy, roundy (Thanks Padre). Might just as well convert the cars to battery also and eliminate the problem.

Andre’

#37

The “rules” should not be difficult to understand if you have run track powered (DC) layouts (in any scale) that have reversing loops. There are basic rules of electricity that must be followed. If you don’t understand those then you will never get a reversing loop to work and will constantly blow fuses and wreck power supplies. Essentially, if your layout is not wired correctly, and it is not operated correctly when trains enter the loop you will have problems. Those laws are unchangable and are laws of nature, not of man.

Greg, if you are running battery power and all your cars are lit by battery power there should be no problems. Now, if I were to have my cars battery powered there would be NO electrical pickups on my metal wheels. There would be no need for a gap larger than an inch. And sparking or arcing is what I’m talking about because that’s all that should occur with metal wheels going over it if the train is moving fast enough. It most likely will blow a fuse if the train is moving slowly. The only conductivity in a non track powered car with metal wheels is in the actual wheel itself. All you are trying to do is prevent arcing when the wheel touches the - and + side at the same time as it traverses the insulated joint in the rail. This is the same electrical problem that occurred with USAT locomotives with sliders going through LGB turnouts and, because the slider was too long, shorted out on the diverging (opposite polarity) rail.

Warren

#38

I’ve been using an isolated section in a reverse loop on my indoor layout for 5 years. Track powered lighted cars are definitely an issue if the isolated section isn’t long enough for the entire train, but the quick gap short of metal wheels bridging the gap when polarity is reversed has never caused me any problems. Sure it arcs some, but it’s too fast to blow a fuse.

For the lighted cars I’ve read that installing a bridge rectifier in the lighting circuit between trucks can isolate the trucks while maintaining two truck power pick-up. I’ve not tried this, but it should solve the problem of moving lighted cars through an isolated section.

It would be nice if one of the clamp makers would enhance their insulating clamps with a short (.25 inch) section of non-conductive rail profile material in the center.

JR

[Edit] Looking quickly at the bridge rectifier idea, I think you need two, one for each truck. Trucks wired individually to AC side, then lighting wires tied together on the +/- DC sides.

#39

Jon.

If you use one bridge rectifier for each truck and marry the two ouputs together, you will have the best of both worlds.
Shorter dead sections being just one.
The voltage the lights would see is a bit less due to the bridge rectifiers.

Of course, there is a simpler answer to complicated track wiring questions.

#40

OKay another option.

I have three locos that use AC based TMCC. Could I run those on AC power on the same track as Battery and not have to worry about the shorts and arcs?

I realize the in car DC lighting would need to be altered.

Andre’