What is the easiest type of mould making out there to cast stuff out of hard platic… for trucks and such? Looking to replicate some of the thomas type wheel trucks that are part of the frame work for my own use.? Is this possible to do?
There’s a couple fellas on here that cast their own trucks and other bits.
MicroMark sells a kit with RTR 2 part rubber mold compound and a 2 part resin mix. Actually 2 different kinds of resin mix, CR-600 and CR-900 which is a higher strength resin.
http://www.micromark.com/complete-resin-casting-starter-set,8174.html
I use it to cast the frogs I use on my switches.
FYI Not trying to rain on your parade, But copying someones else’s product and making copies, Even if it is only for your own use, is illegal, and a violation of the copyright laws. And besides that it’s just stealing…! If you make up your own original masters to mold from… then it’s yours and you can make as many as you want. Making your own “Arch-bar” truck side frame is OK as “Arch-bar” is a type.
BTW I do cast My own side frames in metal. Made from my own original patterns. Along with the bolster mounts, and or talgo mounts in resin or metal.
Sure it is possible to do, and like Ken says Micromark is the way to go, I’ve been casting ‘stuff’ for over 15 years using them as a supplier…just be aware there is a learning curve involved, but we’re here to help!
Ok thanks Dave for the heasds up. Also to Bart and Ken for the info…
I hear alot about rtv and wasn’t sure if it is the same as what you get at the store or not. I will do some more research …Thanks guys…
Travis
As to the RTV, There are a lot of types of it, each with there own proprieties, that are best suited for a particular use. Some softer and more flexible but they don’t hold up well for high production volume, but are used where there is undercut in the piece so that they flex well and allow the removal of the piece without cutting the mold. The general rule is that the softer the RTV the lower the temp that can be used with it.
The resin that is used for casting, is a whole different animal then the plastics used for injection molding. Injection molding is the primary method that the manufactures use for most of the “Plastic” parts that we get on our trains. Again there are a number of different types of resin,Softer, harder, high temp, low temp, etc. What will work for one thing will not be so good for another.
Do your homework. Also the RTV and Resin has a shelf life. The larger volumes are a savings but not if you don’t use it before it goes bad…
Illegal? Won’t be a problem if you make things for your own use that way. Big problem if you make them to sell.
Tom, I think you are correct. I believe it is legal to reproduce just about anything for your own PERSONAL use. Any form of commercial use breaks the rules. My advice is make all ya want. NEVER sell em.
Bob C
@Tom and Bob Sorry, but you are wrong. Reproducing copyrighted items, for any reason, without consent of the owner is illegal. There are very few exceptions that allow the “Fair use” clause of the copyright law to be invoked. There are very strict rules governing even educational use of copyrighted items. It is illegal even to make derivatives from a copyrighted item, i.e. use a sky taken from someones else’s photo for the background of a new creation you making in a photo editing program.
I am not a lawyer, but as a professional photographer, I am knowledgeable with the copyright laws.
If you think thats it’s OK, then call Bachmann up and ask if it’s all right if you make a mold of their trucks, and make your own for personal use. I’ll put a weeks pay on their answer of NO!
I hope that a legal type person on this site chimes in on this topic.
Actually I’ve seen this topic pop up on other forums particularly sci fi modeling where ‘re pops’ are quite common. In reality there are no hard fast answers, but lots of grey area. As this is a hobby forum, I’d prefer not to see that discussion go on here. As Trravis says he would merely like to replicate some widgets, not copy directly the parts that Bmann manufactures, Lets focus on the technical aspects of turning out parts that we can’t get elsewhere and allow the legal battles to go on elsewhere…
Travis I have used the Micro Mark kit with good results. I would say there is a little learning involved. I have cast copies of a bunch of detail part such as flower and cement sacks and 55 gallon drums with good results.
As far as the “legality of the castings”, I for one have never sold any of my casts and never will. I go with the moto of " it’s easier to ask for forgiveness than permission". If the government wants to waste more of our money sending the copyright police to our doors, well we have got way bigger problems than just a few castings being made for a hobbyist… Have fun casting it can be a fun tool to learn and do well.
Guys, as far as reproducing, or even making something “similar” - it depends on who originally MADE it.
Ford Chrysler, and John Deere are fiercely protective of their brand - don’t even THINK about making an unlicensed model. If you give one away, and that person tries to sell it, theie lawyers may well come after you.
Stuart Models Ltd (successor to Stuart-Turner) folks who make live steam kits, are also pretty an-l. I got a ‘cease and desist letter’ from them for using the words “similar in size to Stuart xx” on an ebay auction, I was an authorized independent Stuart dealer, they said I not only couldn’t use comparative language, I couldn’t sell both brands… The Australian manufacturer of the castings (bronze, where stuart’s were iron, and a little different shape) got a letter telling him to stop making them.
CAN and WILL they go after individuals just making things for personal use? Ask those 14-year-old girls who were prosecuted for downloading songs from file sharing sites.
I know how I’d feel if someone were making castings from my stuff in the following four circumstances: either for themselves or to sell, eihter with or without asking for permission, and Golden Rule: act accordingly toward the stuff others have designed. Simple.
Anyway, when I make castings it’ll be from my own masters, and they’d be things I can’t get commercially.
Dave Taylor: I’ve really been admiring that caboose you made for the challenge last year; it’s a beauty. I’ve only seen the final pix; I haven’t been able to find your build thread. ‘Search’ doesn’t seem to be working yet, I dunno…
I want to ask you about your truck castings, as I want to make some myself. I imagine I’ll make my masters from brass. I that what you did?
And for mold material and casting metal, what did you use? I’ve been thinking plaster of Paris or silicone, trhen lead, solder, or recycled pewter. I haven’t done anyting like this before. All your input would be valued.
Do you have a smelter, or do you melt the metal in a ladle over your blowtorch (which is my first and only idea so far), or what do you do? I’m thinking I should heat the molds as well so the metal cools slowly…
Thanks for all advice and info!
I’ll concede on making copies of anothers master. However, almost all of the stuff we narrow gaugers make is long out of any sort of copyright or patent rights issues. The information is therefore considered to be in the public domain. IF I make my own master pattern for a D&RGW 3’-7" freight truck, and can document the research to make it, the original patterns patterns are considered unique. Bob Hartford has made a beautiful model of this truck and frankly I would not put forth the effort to make my own masters and casting. However, a simple corner brace - a piece of flat bar with a couple on NBWs, I wuold easily make a master and cast my own.
Mik - I know of a similar situation, and you are correct that these things are done. However, in the case I know of, the ‘defendant’ if you want to call them that called their bluff and nothing ever came of it simply because the original item was not considered copyrightable or patentable. Larger companies will always try to ‘bully’ smaller companies in that manner. The truth of the matter will never be known because the legal issues always remain confidential.
My grandfather had the best philosophy on this - “The don’t lock you up for stealing, they lock you up for getting caught!” Put another way, don’t ask, don’t tell.
Bob C.
IThanks for the input on the trucks question…didn’t mean to open up a can of worms…
Please believe that I address this issue in an informative and instructive attitude, not to be combative, or in an accusing manner. I have had my copyrighted created material used, and reproduced, at my loss of revenue in the past. The violators thought that it was theirs to use and reproduce, and they too were incorrectly led to believe that it was “fair use” and there fore OK to do, by an acquaintance that was ignorant of the law.
The basic automatic copyright on a creation is the life of the creator plus 50-70 years, and that can be renewed for an additional 28 years, with a simple application form to the copyright office.
@ Bob I believe that you are incorrect on the usage factor due to “public domain” status.
Here is a link to a Basic Guide to The Copyright Law, for those that might be interested.
http://www.copyright.com/Services/copyrightoncampus/basics/law.html
@ Travis I’ll be more then willing to help you gain the skills to cast, It really isn’t that hard. Stay tuned.
@ John Go to the article section and search “casting” there are several good write ups on basic casting. You are not alone on asking me how I do it, And therefore I am thinking of doing an article of my own on how I do it. The write ups in the article section , tho a little old are still good on the basics for resin casting. There are also a lot of info out there on the web.
I’m currently re-making my basic molds to handle the higher heat required to cast a much harder metal and pewter blend.
If its not something that you must tackle in the next few days… then Stand by. If it’s something on the roaring front burner, let me know.
Dave, if what you are alleging is true, then just about every hobby manufacturer in any medium for any type of hobby is most likely in violation. I have no doubt in my mind that Aristo Craft, USA Trains and many other major manufacturers do not have specific letters of approval to manufacture long out of production prototype material. Not to mention, WHO would they get that permission from? Carter Brothers are sure not around any longer to ask permission to model their rolling stock. ALCO, Shay, Climax, Baldwin, Patterson Cooke, etc. , these guys are long gone, and I don’t think anyone even knows where to look to get permission.
UP rattled sabers awhile back about charging hobby manufacturers for licenses for their paint schemes. To my knowledge it all fell through the crack when they realized that the manufacturers would simply stop producing their material and as such also cease and desist the totally FREE ADVERTISING they were receiving.
Another incident come to mind. One fellow in Ohio, I believe, whose name was McSomethingoranother, began selling his widget and called it the “McWidget”. McDonalds sued him for copyright infringement, and LOST. The court stated that his McWidget bore no resemblance to any product that MdDonalds sold combined with his legal last name being McSomethingoranother allowed him to use the “Mc” prefix and therefor no copyright infringement existed.
When someone is reproducing for sale, yes, there is an economical motivation to recover lost revenue. When one person reproduces a handful of items for their own use, sometimes the cost of the materials to make the copies is near as much as the copies themselves. Not that long ago someone on this forum did a whole build thread on a plug door box car “86’ HyCube boxcar in 1/29” http://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/15990/86-hy-cube-boxcar-in-1-29, a car still in service. I wonder if that hobbyist got permission from the car manufacturer to produce a resin cast copy of his car?
As was said by another poster, there are far more gray areas of copyright law than there are crystal clear ones. Our legal system is very simple to understand “You will get the best defense money can buy.” Keeping in mind that the emphasis is on ‘money can buy’.
Mik said “Ask those 14-year-old girls who were prosecuted for downloading songs from file sharing sites.” I am aware of that incident. I am also cognizant of the reality that there was a reasonable expectation that they knew what they were doing was illegal and continued. I am also aware of the congressional hearings with Senator Orin Hatch where there was a series of very pointed questions asked and answered regarding the use of ‘copied copyrighted material for personal use’. The thumbnail version of the outcome of those questions was that making a small number of copies for music for yourself and IMMEDIATE family members was permissible, provided they never left ‘home’. I am sure that those hearings would stand muster if an individual were brought to task for making a couple of part castings for his or her personal use. Similar incidents happen all the time with the major software vendors. Prosecution costs money, big money. To prosecute someone for a handful of dollar casting copies does not justify the expense. Again, it all boils down to 'how much money are we talking about"?
Personally I am not worried about making a few casting reproductions for my use, especially if I create the masters. Of course I have no intention of making public announcements that I have done so, nor am I going into business against the current manufacturers.
Just my thoughts and experiences.
Bob C.
You could always cut around the legal BS by making your own masters out of wood or styrene. Then its YOUR model. This would work with archbars or British style journals. Thomas nor Bachmann then can claim they own the rights to the originals. As long as they are visually minimally differently enough from the commercial versions your in the clear. Remember an archbar is an archbar and they are almost identical from mfr to mfr. Think BuddyL.
@Bob I would love to have a sit down gentlemanly stipulating exchange with you some time on this topic. After a few beverages of choice, and some arousing discussions, we would probably agree to disagree, and get side tracked about the latest model of something or nother.
This thread isn’t about the personal interpretation of the laws. If you would like to continue this we should take it elsewhere.
@Victor You hit it on the head, plus I’ll add “Thou shall not steal”
Most people do not care, until it’s their ox that got gored.
There are many great modelers on this forum. For most of them it would be pretty easy and part of the challenge for them to make their own originals. I highly encourage modelers to learn the simple skills to basic resin casting. If i was going to model a hotel with 30+ double hung windows, I would be casting all of them, not trying to hand build each of them. But I can’t encourage someone to buy one GrantLine and make copies. I don’t think GrantLine would give you it’s OK, Do i think that they would sue you? Nope, But they could, if they chose to. Do you think that your next order for one door would get filled in a timely fashion, I doubt it.
It may not seem like many $'s to you, but to a small “Mom & Pop” business, every $ counts, and especially in these tight economic times. We all know of a small business thats struggling to stay afloat, and it does make a difference.
As to casting, I’m not a master by any means, but I will be glad to share my knowledge base with anyone interested enough to ask.
Other then that I Have No Opinion at all.