Large Scale Central

Modern Secessionist Movements in the U.S

General Discussion
#1

The continual hammering of Ms. Sara Palin’s (apparently totally unfounded) connection to the Alaskan Independence Party and their secessionist platform made me wonder about other modern secessionist movements in the U.S.

Is this unique to the state of Alaska? What about the de-facto secessionist movements of the city of Berkeley, San Francisco and other cities and counties?

Here is a Wikipedia entry on Recent secessionist efforts in the United States (link).

It makes for very interesting reading. Note particularly the information about the 2006 “First North American Secessionist Convention.” It says “Delegates included a broad spectrum from libertarians to socialists to greens to Christian conservatives to indigenous peoples activists. Groups represented included Alaskan Independence Party, Cascadia Independence Project, Hawaiʻi Nation, The Second Maine Militia, The Free State Project, the Republic of New Hampshire, the League of the South, Christian Exodus, the Second Vermont Republic and the United Republic of Texas.”

Looks to me like secession is an idea that is pretty widespread both geographically and politically. If anyone’s remote interest or belief in secession is to be used as a measure of whether a person or other entity is “American,” we will have a long list of disenfranchised people and geo-political units.

As to de-facto withdrawal from the U.S., just look at San Francisco, CA’s “City of Sanctuary” program, where they actually return violent criminals who are here illegally to our streets rather than turn them over to Immigration and Customs Enforcement. This recently directly resulted in the murder of a totally innocent father and his two teenage sons. The city attorney is now calling this a “case of mistaken identity” rather than the murder that it is. Any bets on whether the guy who did this will be let go again? After all, non-compliance with federal laws is the law in San Francisco.

Then there is Berkeley, CA: The city council there has voted to force the Marine Corps to close their recruiting office and recently sent a letter to them saying they are “uninvited and unwelcome intruders.” I assume this would apply equally to the arrival of the military in the event that Berkeley was under attack or was subject to some natural disaster (earthquake?) that required the presence of the U.S. military. The have already been branded “uninvited and unwelcome intruders.”

I call the actions of these cities “secession,” and it wasn’t even put to a vote, nor announced in clear terms. They just don’t believe in being a part of the U.S. and enforcing American rules of law and ways of life. These undeclared secessions are much more problematical than the call by the AIP for an election, where secession is only one of four choices, including the status quo.

We all know that the secessionist concerns being expressed by a couple of LSC members are only because Ms. Palin, as the Republican Vice Presidential candidate represents a serous threat to the Obama-Biden campaign efforts. Otherwise, we would have previously heard concerns over these closer to home New Hampshire Secessionists (link), along with the many others of their leanings.

Happy RRing,

Jerry

#2

I have a colleague who says he’s petitioning the State Department for recognisition as a foreign country.

#3

First, we succeed from the US, then declare war and surrender immediately! Then we apply for foreign aid. Everybody knows these crazy Americans are embarrassingly generous to their defeated enemies!

It can’t fail! Who’s with me?

#4

I’d be very troubled if anyone who advocated secession ran for President or Vice President.

Jerry, can you point to an instance in which a member of the Berkeley City council was a vice presidential candidate for a major party ticket? Or the last time a member of “First North American Secessionist Convention” was on a major party presidential ticket?

I’ll settle for a wife or husband–can you point to an instance of the wife or husband of a major party presidential candidate being a member of a secessionist movement? I think you’ll need to go back to Wade Hampton of South Carolina, in the 1880s

I’ll wait though. I’m sure your post makes some kind of sense

#5
Steve Featherkile said:
First, we succeed from the US, then declare war and surrender immediately! Then we apply for foreign aid. Everybody knows these crazy Americans are embarrassingly generous to their defeated enemies!

It can’t fail! Who’s with me?


Me, me, me, me…I’ll even hold the white flag that Barak Hussein Obama wants to wave… if I can get it out of his hand…:wink:

#6

Key West has always said “they are just currently part of the USA”. Texas sometimes questions its association. Nobody would really be upset if Chicago or California left or went on there own. If I was in Alaska, I’m sure I’d be questioning why they are supporting the rest of us with their natural resources, when Canada seems to have a better handle on it. Hawaiians think the “Howie’s” are crazy and should be thrown off the islands.

It is the United States of America, not the United Nation of America, though some would like it to be. Most parts of the Country just tolerate the other parts. That is just something that many people need to learn to live with.

#7
Ken Brunt said:
Steve Featherkile said:
First, we succeed from the US, then declare war and surrender immediately! Then we apply for foreign aid. Everybody knows these crazy Americans are embarrassingly generous to their defeated enemies!

It can’t fail! Who’s with me?


Me, me, me, me…I’ll even hold the white flag that Barak Hussein Obama wants to wave… if I can get it out of his hand…:wink:

Ignorance i bliss and I’m in nirvana!! sory folks

#8

Mark, from your lips to G-d’s ear.

Having a bad day?

#9

Mark- Uncalled for, since at last reckoning it was what. 10% african heritage, 30% anglo, the rest ARAB?

#10
Curmudgeon said:
Mark- Uncalled for, since at last reckoning it was what. 10% african heritage, 30% anglo, the rest ARAB?
Where did you hear that? I'm not saying it is incorrect, but it is not what I have heard. Ralph
#11

MY god is this stuff ever dumb. Obama is not an Arab, no part of him is an Arab–Arab is a specific ethnicity. The people in Iran are not Arabs, Turks are not Arabs, greeks are not Arabs, Nigerians are not Arabs. Calling Obama’s Kenyan father an Arab is like calling a Norwegian Japanese. It’s a mark of ignorance.

You can be a muslim and not be an arab–it’s true! There are millions of Muslims in Pakistan who are not Arabs.

And you know what? You can be an Arab and not be Muslim! That’s also true. There are millions of people in the world who have Arab names, but are actually christians! That’s because–concentrate–“Arab” is an ethnic/cultural group, in the same way as “German.”

Being a muslim is exactly like being a chirstian, in the sense that it is a religion, not an ethnicity. You can be norwegian, and be a muslim, and you can be an arab, and be christian.

this stuff is so hard to understand…

Hey, did you guys know that Obama’s middle name is HUSSEIN? Time to pee your pants and hide under the bed!

#12
mike omalley said:
MY god is this stuff ever dumb. Obama is not an Arab, no part of him is an Arab--Arab is a specific ethnicity. The people in Iran are not Arabs, Turks are not Arabs, greeks are not Arabs, Nigerians are not Arabs. Calling Obama's Kenyan father an Arab is like calling a Norwegian Japanese. It's a mark of ignorance.

You can be a muslim and not be an arab–it’s true! There are millions of Muslims in Pakistan who are not Arabs.

And you know what? You can be an Arab and not be Muslim! That’s also true. There are millions of people in the world who have Arab names, but are actually christians! That’s because–concentrate–“Arab” is an ethnic/cultural group, in the same way as “German.”

Being a muslim is exactly like being a chirstian, in the sense that it is a religion, not an ethnicity. You can be norwegian, and be a muslim, and you can be an arab, and be christian.

this stuff is so hard to understand…

Hey, did you guys know that Obama’s middle name is HUSSEIN? Time to pee your pants and hide under the bed!


:lol: :lol:

Mike, it’s getting better all the time! :lol: As far as I’m concerned much of this confusion has roots in the infamous “Bliss Factor”. :wink: :slight_smile:

#13
Steve Featherkile said:
First, we succeed from the US, then declare war and surrender immediately! Then we apply for foreign aid. Everybody knows these crazy Americans are embarrassingly generous to their defeated enemies!

It can’t fail! Who’s with me?


Oh man!!! Remember that movie “The Mouse That Roared”, with Peter Sellers? Late '50s, early 60s?

Tiny European country sends its army - a dozen blokes with crossbows - to “attack” the US, then immediately surrender and apply for foreign aid.

Imagine them trying to get through immigration now!

#14
Dave Healy said:
Steve Featherkile said:
First, we succeed from the US, then declare war and surrender immediately! Then we apply for foreign aid. Everybody knows these crazy Americans are embarrassingly generous to their defeated enemies!

It can’t fail! Who’s with me?


Oh man!!! Remember that movie “The Mouse That Roared”, with Peter Sellers? Late '50s, early 60s?

Tiny European country sends its army - a dozen blokes with crossbows - to “attack” the US, then immediately surrender and apply for foreign aid.

Imagine them trying to get through immigration now!


OH, Dave, you found me out! That’s where I stole the idea! :lol:

#15

I’m not calling him that, the other racist is, I have no problem voting for him as I intend to do!

#16
mike omalley said:
I'd be very troubled if anyone who advocated secession ran for President or Vice President.

Jerry, can you point to an instance in which a member of the Berkeley City council was a vice presidential candidate for a major party ticket? Or the last time a member of “First North American Secessionist Convention” was on a major party presidential ticket?

I’ll settle for a wife or husband–can you point to an instance of the wife or husband of a major party presidential candidate being a member of a secessionist movement? I think you’ll need to go back to Wade Hampton of South Carolina, in the 1880s

I’ll wait though. I’m sure your post makes some kind of sense


Mike,

It’s your query that doesn’t make sense. Hitler wasn’t a candidate until he became a candidate. For that matter no one with crazy ideas has ever been a candidate prior to running for office. That makes their ideas no less dangerous or crazy. The fact that such people control only a small municipality now doesn’t make such conduct okay or harmless.

#17

Richard, you missed the context for the thread–I completely agree with you about secession.

The context is Sarah Palin’s husband, who was a member of the Alaskan Independence Party from 1994 to 2002. The AIP was founded by a guy born in Kansas who came to hate the US and said that when he when he died he would not be buried under “that damn flag.” AIP members refer to US troops as “an occupying Army.” It sounds crazy, but it’s a significant force in Alaska politics Sarah Palin had been named as member of the AIP by three Party member, but there is no official record of her having been a member.

Jerry’s post was in response to me hammering away in another thread, about the secession thing. To my mind it’s extremely disturbing to think that a candidate for Vice President is married to a guy who apparently reducing the flag to 49 stars.

It seems to me she ought to explain it to the American people

PS this is not a particularly good summary of the case–it’s from the LA Times and it’s an editorial which is clearly biased. But it does summarize some of the more lurid facts–and I stress facts. I just did a quick search

#18

I don’t see anything overly disturbing, or even “un-American”, in someone considering the possibility of secession. The authers and signers of the Declaration of Independence believed that it is not only the people’s right, but also their duty, to cast off any government which becomes oppressive or is no longer serving the people’s needs.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”

#19

I completely agree–anyone should be allowed to advocate for secession at any time. Anyone should be allowed to advocate for revolution at any time, or man/boy love, or the ethical treatment of animals. Free speech means free speech.

The question is, do you want advocates of Alaska secession running for Vice President? Maybe you do–all I am asking for is a public explanation of her relationship to/feelings about a party which, it it got its way, would require Ric to change his avatar by removing one star from the flag. Speaking personally, I would find it very difficult to vote for a candidate who wants to diminish the United States

On the other hand, is secession legal under the Constitution? Lincoln said no, pretty definitively. Democracy–the will of the majority–is impossible if everyone who loses an election takes their ball and goes home. That’s the point of the Gettysburg address. Democracy perishes if the members of a society refuse to abide by its decisions

I’m actually astonished that more people here don’t find her husband’s membership in a secessionist party more troubling. For all his bluster, Rev. Wright never advocated anything like secession, nor called American soldiers on American soil “an occupying Army.”

#20

Mike I didn’t want to say this but your tenacity in your concerns for this secessionist thing is beginning to put you in the category of a hypocrite.

Quote:
The question is, do you want advocates of Alaska secession running for Vice President? Maybe you do--all I am asking for is a public explanation of her relationship to/feelings about a party which, it it got its way, would require Ric to change his avatar by removing one star from the flag. Speaking personally, I would find it very difficult to vote for a candidate who wants to diminish the United States
You could be showing the same tenacity about another candidate that's running for president. What I'm astonished about is that you don't find this at all troubling:

“Ayers was part of the Weather Underground, a radical group that claimed credit for explosions at the U.S. Capitol, the Pentagon and more. Originally known as the Weathermen, the group took its name from a Bob Dylan lyric: “You don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.”
In 1970, a bomb the group was making to use against an Army base exploded at a New York town house, killing three members. Ayers fled and spent years as a fugitive. He met and married fellow fugitive Bernadine Dohrn during that period.
The two surfaced in 1980. Ayers had been charged with various offenses stemming from demonstrations in Chicago in 1969, but those charges had been dismissed for prosecutorial misconduct. He never faced any charges related to the town house explosion. Dohrn pleaded guilty to two counts of aggravated battery and two counts of bail-jumping in connection with a 1969 anti-war protest.
Ayers now teaches at the University of Illinois at Chicago, and Dohrn heads the Children and Family Justice Center at Northwestern University. Ayers has advised Chicago Mayor Richard Daley on education issues.
Ayers and Obama both served on the board of directors of the Woods Fund, a Chicago-based charity that focuses on developing community groups to assist the poor. A variety of business executives, journalists and academics serve on the board.
When Obama was organizing his first race for the state legislature, the incumbent lawmaker he hoped to replace introduced him to her supporters and urged them to back Obama. One introductory event took place at the home of Ayers and Dohrn.
In the mid-1990s, Ayers and Dohrn hosted a meet-and-greet at their house to introduce Obama to their neighbors during his first run for the Illinois Senate. In 2001, Ayers contributed $200 to Obama’s campaign. Ayers also served alongside Obama between December 1999 and December 2002 on the board of the not-for-profit Woods Fund of Chicago. That board met four times a year, and members would see each other at occasional dinners the group hosted.“Obama and Ayers met a dozen times as members of the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago, a local grant-making foundation, according to the group’s president. They appeared together to discuss juvenile justice on a 1997 panel sponsored by the University of Chicago, records show. They appeared again in 2002 at an academic panel co-sponsored by the Chicago Public Library.” (Dan Morain and Bob Drogin, “Obama And The Former Radicals,” The Los Angeles Times, 4/18/08”
Ayers contributed $200 to Obama’s legislative campaign in 2001, but there is no other sign that he has actively aided Obama’s political career.
During Wednesday’s debate, Obama argued that if the candidates are to be held responsible for distant connections to the Weather Underground, then Clinton would fail, too. He pointed out that her husband, just before leaving the White House, commuted the sentences of two members of the group who had been convicted of weapons and explosives charges.
‘‘I don’t regret setting bombs,’’ Bill Ayers said. ‘‘I feel we didn’t do enough.’’ Mr. Ayers, who spent the 1970’s as a fugitive in the Weather Underground, was sitting in the kitchen of his big turn-of-the-19th-century stone house in the Hyde Park district of Chicago. The long curly locks in his Wanted poster are shorn, though he wears earrings. He still has tattooed on his neck the rainbow-and-lightning Weathermen logo that appeared on letters taking responsibility for bombings. And he still has the ebullient, ingratiating manner, the apparently intense interest in other people, that made him a charismatic figure in the radical student movement."

Since there isn’t a shred of evidence that the Palin’s advocate secession or associate themselves with people that do. The AIP advocates a vote, nothing else. And from what I’ve read of Joe Vogler, he’s never bombed anything(except himself) or ever knew the Palin’s.

For a complete and telling story of William Ayers and his wife:
http://www.americanissuesproject.org/pdf/AIP_Know_Enough_Research.pdf

and the add that the AIP plan to air:
http://www.americanissuesproject.org/american-issue-project-news/american-issues-project-launches-television-ad-campaign.html