Large Scale Central

Lube axle journals - NO?

Perhaps an old topic - yet likely some new readers.

Having worked on the Palm Desert’s Living Desert Museum gigantic garden railway - 15 trains moving at once - the question was should we lube the axle journals knowing this is a desert with dusty winds, sun, and lots of dirt? Guests had commented on the “squeaking wheels” showing implicit reluctance to think highly of the train group’s management skills. That was a motivation to try lubing.

Bottom line: We started lubing the journals with a drop of Mobil One’s 15-30 grade motor oil – a synthetic that will not harm plastic.

Result: Silence from the rolling stock - not our entire work crew. Yet, no visitor complaints. Yet again, much volunteer discussion as to the damage that “will occur” to “no problem as we stopped a lot of wear.”

Evaluation: No evidence of dirt in the journals - yes, some slight amounts of dust 'n lube on the axle shaft outside the journal from natural expulsion from hundreds of hours of rolling. Appraisal made after several weeks 10 hour days of use.

The Living Desert’s outdoor RR exhibit is enormous and is a “walk into the exhibit” type of display.

I’d expect that Tesla would approve of your real-world experimental methods, “Today’s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.”

– Nikola Tesla, Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934

Using proper lubricants, as the original note states, is a no-brainer…yes, lubrication is a rather good idea. In a lot of cases, proper lubrication allows more cars to be pulled by a single locomotive, at less expense than the cost of bearings, which in most cases need lubricating as well.

On our pike, we seldom see any visible wear on journals even with much use. All trucks are lubricated before being put into service…also a drip of plastic compatible oil on each Kadee coupler, to prevent rust in the knuckle…

Thanks for the empirical data Wendell. Curious, Did you guys discuss or try graphite? Since it’s dry it wouldn’t attract any grit. Not sure if it would need more frequent applications or not than oil based lubricants.

Randy’s suggestion of using graphite was considered. Of course, the discussion among modelers on any modeler’s products ranges from the imagination to actual experience. The consensus was oil is better because it has staying power and acts better with heat. Hmmmm? Ok, the key point is that once the axle enters the truck frame, it virtually is “sealed” into the frame. That appears why we don’t see grit inside the hole nor at the ends of the axles. So the no grit advantage of graphite (locks etc. as use) as not attracting dirt is (was) not paramount.

However, as to the “staying power” of graphite I lack information. I have used Teflon based grease to lube drive trains, etc., and it appears to retain itself on the gears. Otherwise, I use Mobil One chassis synthetic grease. The LGB squeeze tubes of grease would comparatively be in the hundreds of dollars for the same amount.

Wendell

I used the LGB grease, I didn’t know better back when I bought it, and I seldom have any squeaks. Also, now that I am upgrading to ball bearings, I am not seeing any wear in the journals nor the axle ends. Now I don’t run as much as a public display, but I have run the plating and blackening off the wheel treads on most of my cars.

As for the axle sealing itself in the journals, that would depend on the car. There is a decent amount of slop between the axles and journals on the USA 1:24 cars and the Bachmann cars. Not so much on the Aristo cars (with Aristo wheels). At least that is my observation on my fleet.

The advantage in lubing the axles at the journals appears to be the axle, even with sideways movement, does not leave the journal – so the lube stays internally between the axle end and the journal walls. Ah, those observant will note there is excess grease, over time, around the entrance to the journal wherein the axle enters. Yes, eventual leakage. The desert layout findings are the amount of grease exiting does not account for the entire amount applied.

Yes! Memories! I remember the debate on what is currently the best smoke fluid - I know, as I started it.

This hobby is continually refocusing and reassessing. Good stuff!

Wendell

Fred Mills, BSc, BS, SD (Hons) said: … to prevent rust in the knuckle…

Hey, there’s a name to use on your layout, Rusty Knuckles, hmm, “Rusty Knuckles Rail Supply and Leasing”, how about something like that?

Wendell, everything goes better with a little lubrication. As for the reference to smoke fluid, how did that get in here?

Some things are proven, some things are peoples’ impressions or opinions, but its good to discuss this stuff from time to time. Someone may have found a better way or product.

So, what did we decide was the best smoke fluid?

Steve Featherkile said:

So, what did we decide was the best smoke fluid?

Nitro Methane, need a hot spark to light it though

I use graphite or moly powder for various things. One downside of the stuff is that it must stay dry, if you have any environment that gets moisture, or you add oil to something already lubed with graphite it causes a mess.

Graphite and moly work well in metal to metal in my experience, so metal axles in metal sideframes have worked well for me. Metal axles in plastic sideframes, I normally try oil, the graphite/moly does not seem to stick well to the plastic.

In metal, graphite and moly seem to “plate” to the surface. I prefer no oil, grit and dust / dirt eventually gets into the journals.

My experience…

Greg

Moly is an interesting idea. I have no experience with applying it but have used moly coated bullets (now I have an opinion on their practicality but that’s another topic). The bullets coating does not rub off easily. I now that you can buy the stuff to coat you own. Now if this stuff can be applied to axles would it be durable and hold up. Don’t know but maybe interesting.

Greg Elmassian said:

I use graphite or moly powder for various things. One downside of the stuff is that it must stay dry, if you have any environment that gets moisture, or you add oil to something already lubed with graphite it causes a mess.

Sounds like that means no leaving rolling stock out overnight to get dew condensation on.

Devon Sinsley said:

Steve Featherkile said:

So, what did we decide was the best smoke fluid?

Nitro Methane, need a hot spark to light it though

Thank you, Grasshopper. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cool.gif)You first. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)

Well, Wendell, the OP, presumably was suggesting using Mobile One synthetic oil for metal axle in plastic journal. At least, that’s the way I read it. I’m glad to see that Greg, despite his long post touting the “superiority of grafite” in metal on metal, inserted one line agreeing with Wendell, for metal on plastic. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)

Would Mobil 1 synthetic 10w30 work just as well? I also have the synthetic grease as well.

10/30 weight synthetic is fine. Likely little difference in operation between 15 vs. 10 weight.

In car engines, 10/30 oil vs 15/30 is a question of viscosity improvers in the oil. In short, the 10 weight will be thinner at startup than the 15 weight. Heat is the main reason the oil gets “thicker” or heavier. Probably, my fantasy, I use the 15 knowing that there is so little heat it probably will stay at 15, or if a 10 weight, that too will remain at ten. I think for this purpose heavier is the better choice. Again, a guess.

Another guess is that Labelle’s little squeeze tubes of their heavy oil (referenced as grease) is really 30 weight synthetic. I have not found a synthetic motor oil in a straight weight of 30.

Just to clarify, I use powdered moly, like graphite powder, but moly seems to have a better affinity for metal, i.e. the “plating” analogy.

It really seems to work “into” the surface of metal. Dew is no problem, since all of my trucks are under something, and the dew falls down… it’s excessive humidity and/or rain splashing around where I have seen it cake up on wheels… in fact one long time poster put so much on, that it shorted from the axle across the insulator to the wheel…

I tried the powdered graphite and moly on steel axles in plastic journals, the stuff did not seem to work into the surface. On those I use a thicker oil, never grease… Oil seems to “wick” better and stay in the contact patches.

I use a heavy gear oil, but stuff for trains, not like gear oil on cars.

I’ll have to try the mobile 1 stuff, probably superior, but I normally run enough motive power that rolling friction is not so critical that the type of oil is an issue.

My lubrication is to avoid damage to the journals when they run dry:

New truck after 2 laps on the layout:

looked a little funny… looking a bit more: hey, something really wrong looking

2 laps, destroyed journals:

Greg,

What the heck I can’t believe that is only a lube issue? I am not saying your wrong that just seems hard to believe.