Large Scale Central

Light Industrial Diesels and Gas Locos

Keep it up guys ! I find these DCC vs all other options debates almost as entertaining as the original track power vs battery debates back in the old LSOL days.

Hopefully Peter will put most of this noise on ignore. I have tried his new board and it will work fine for my application at a fraction of the cost of my other option and no, I’m not interested in DCC, I’ll only consider that if I return to HO. Hard to teach old dogs new tricks. As you may have guessed I don’t own a smart phone and I don’t do social media.

Gary Buchanan, FOG said:

Keep it up guys ! I find these DCC vs all other options debates almost as entertaining as the original track power vs battery debates back in the old LSOL days.

Hopefully Peter will put most of this noise on ignore. I have tried his new board and it will work fine for my application at a fraction of the cost of my other option and no, I’m not interested in DCC, I’ll only consider that if I return to HO. Hard to teach old dogs new tricks. As you may have guessed I don’t own a smart phone and I don’t do social media.

Gary

I hate to tell you this, but LSC is social media!

Tom

Maybe, but it’s not the plague like Facebook, Twitter and a half dozen other bottomless pits people fall into these days !

So a good question here for the MLS sound card, at what voltage will it start working, i.e. from track power, no battery?

Oh, you need a 9 volt rechargeable battery to make it run on track power… so the complaint that a DCC decoder operating on DC loses sound is the same as this device… so you put a keepalive cap on the DCC decoder and a “keepalive battery” on the MLS… pretty much a wash.

Many people are using DCC equipped locos on DC… and it’s increasing… and the original question is what do you think of a smaller unit for smaller diesels, and the original response by me is that an HO DCC decoder can do even more for about the same cost per loco…

So, I said there’s competition there, and I don’t think the market is as big…

I stick to my opinion… and I would invest my “R&D money” in the larger locos, where the incremental cost to the loco is a smaller percentage of the overall cost AND you don’t have competition from HO DCC decoders.

Greg

Well, as a result of all this mularky here I’ve just bought an MLS steam sound card, speaker, remote and rc 2 function actuator to fit in the battery powered loco you see in my avatar.

Regards dcc - I run dc track power (about 60% of my roster) and live steam plus the one battery. I don’t run the dc stuff enough to justifiy the cost, in my mind, of going with dcc in general and nor do I want what I percieve to be the cost and complications. I like lots of stock not stuff I can’t see that I will make not much use of. Dcc cards available to me in the uk, eg Phoenix, are to my mind overfeatured as a result of being loaded with gizmos I cannot access as a dc only user. And when the price of the Phonix card mathches the price you paid, nib, for a Bachmann 3 truck Shay then it becomes a big ask.

I have one other loco with a sound card, a recently aquired 2nd hand Accucraft K-27, fitted with a Sierra Sountrax card, which was I understand aimed at the dc market. Everything accesable automated, voltage a reed switch activated. It’s what sold the loco to me.

A few points, Greg.

First, how long do the Keep Alives provide power to the board? Keep Alives are designed to carry a locomotive over dirty track or switches where contact is intermittent. They’re not long-term back-up power. Most users I’ve chatted with don’t want more than 1 or 2 seconds of stored power because of the risk to scenery in the event of a derailment where the loco leaves the track and keeps going. Unlike deadrail, if a Keep-Alive-equipped loco leaves the track and keeps going, it’s not receiving the “stop NOW, dammit!!!” command from the controller, and will cheerfully continue tearing up the plaster and ground foam until such time as the Keep Alive fully discharges. You don’t want more than a second or two at the most capacity in that situation. That will be fine for quick interruptions when changing direction in an analog DC environment, but it requires you to get moving immediately again to avoid the sound dropping out. If you’re switching cars, it’s not uncommon to be stopped for 30 seconds while coupling/uncoupling and throwing switches. That’s going to drain even a high-capacity Keep Alive.

Second, yes, you can set the throttle to “minimum” voltage to keep the sound going but the motor stopped when pausing for more than just a few seconds (the life of the Keep Alive). That requires you to have a controller where you have a visual representation of the voltage going to the track (knob, slider, meter, etc.). How do you do that on systems that use pushbuttons, like the Old-school Train Engineer, Railboss, or similar systems? There are many modelers who love the simplicity of “button one makes the train go faster, button two makes it go slower.”

Third, “Keep Alives” are not easily fitted to every DCC decoder. This is less of an issue as new decoders are developed and that feature becomes more and more “standard,” but it’s something to think about. Also, Keep Alives add to the cost of the decoder, so if you’re comparing dollars for dollars, it’s a line item in the equation.

Fourth, track voltages. Large scale power supplies have been known to put out upwards of 30 volts to the track. Many HO decoders aren’t going to like that very much. “Hey, that’s a great smoke unit!” “Nope, that’s my DCC decoder that just got nuked.”

Fifth, even if your decoder will handle your track voltages, how do you deal with PWM incompatibility? While it’s easy to say “just filter your track,” that works on only your track. What happens when you take your trains to run on someone else’s railroad or club display that uses PWM? You’re certainly not going to put a filter onboard every loco.

Sixth, many “critter” type locos I’ve encountered are direct-to-motor wiring from the rails, often in very tight spaces. All things being equal, what’s the easier installation? Two wires soldered to the existing track pick-ups, or having to break the connection between the track pick-ups and the motor to do a full-on DCC installation?

Of course you can use HO DCC decoders in an analog environment if you want inexpensive sound. No one here is suggesting otherwise. However, there are many factors which historically have, and will continue to throw roadblocks in front of this practice finding widespread use–certainly to any level where they may be considered “competition” to a standalone sound system developed specifically for analog DC. If DCC in analog DC works for you, great. Run with it. Don’t expect to find a crowd of people running behind you. The letters “DCC” scare the bejeezus out of many folks, and even if it were “Plug-and-play” simple, they’d run the other direction.

Later,

K

Peter Lucas said:

Gentlemen, my question was…" do you run any light industrial diesel or gas locos on your railroad, what are they and are you likely to be interested in a soundcard for them in DCC, analog or radio control?"

Please can we leave DCC debates to another topic?

Thanks

Peter Lucas

MyLocoSound

Back to your original question…I have 2 Bachmann rail trucks and a Hartland Mack all running on Battery / RC that I would like to fit with sound. A small board made for that application would be great.

I installed the Zimo MX645 decoder in the LGB rail truck and it runs great on DC ( used pure DC have not tried Pulsed DC). I used the goose sound load. Also enabled me to add head lights and a red tail light. I used the one input for a horn to be triggered by a track magnet. Sound file runs through the gears and even floats the valves.

"Please can we leave DCC debates to another topic?

Thanks

Peter Lucas"

Dan Pierce said:

Hartland macks, Lgb rail truck. but cost needs to be less than $85 as I can get a full fledged Zimo sound decoder for these (MX645) and I can control motor (over 1 amp) servos, many lights.

This decoder will work on DC also!!!

Lack of respect earns the same .

So Dan.

To echo another poster. How do you keep the sound alive when changing direction, for example?

He answered that, with the keep-alive.

To Kevin and Tony:

I made the point about comparing the 9v battery in the MLS card to the keepalive cap in the DCC decoder. The discussion was about losing the DCC sound when stopped, and when I gave the answer, the immediate comeback is “oh, how about reversing”

Taken from the "Shawshank Redemption “how can you be so obtuse?, is it deliberate?” …

Yep…

Greg

I was hoping they were like my old cards that have steam and compressor clanging during stops and are optically controlled for the chuffs, bells and whistle at start up… battery power.

Greg, you may have missed the point I was making. A keep-alive is a short-duration power solution only–by design. Users specifically don’t want the loco to be powered very long absent power from the rails. Runaway locos on an elevated indoor railroad are not good things. Damage to the scenery is one concern, but a locomotive falling 56" to a concrete floor makes for a lot of scrap parts very quickly. I have built-in keep-alives on my Zimo and TCS decoders. They’re good for about 2 seconds if I lose power while the loco is running. That’s all you need to get through dirty track or over a problematic switch (the purpose of a keep-alive). If the loco is stopped (powering lights and sound only) when I remove power, I get about 10 seconds of sound before it shuts off. While in theory that sounds sufficient to compensate for voltage loss while changing direction, in practical operation, you’d have to move so methodically and precisely it’s not practical, if it is even possible depending on the specific control system you’re using to power your track.

Bottom line; just because something can mimic the operations of another doesn’t mean it’s a suitable substitute in practical application. Yes, you can add higher-capacity keep-alives to give yourself more breathing room. That has its own set of risks, potentially damaging the decoder from the current charging the capacitors upon power-up. From Zimo’s web site concerning their HO-sized decoders: “larger values ​​than about 5000 µF are NOT recommended (due to possible overloading of the charging circuit).”

Later,

K

Tony Walsham said:

So Dan.

To echo another poster. How do you keep the sound alive when changing direction, for example?

Tony

Actually its quite simple. Some like keep alive but frankly its a very poor solution (been there done that) What I use is a hybrid approach which separates signal reception from power. Smaller locomotives use supercaps for on board power while larger locomotives use batteries. While using on board I still have 100% signal reception so I can still control both the locomotive and sound.

Stan

Thanks Stan.

We are talking about a DCC decoder being used in a DC only or battery power situation.

What is this hybrid product and where would a user purchase such an item?

How much are they?

So far only one DCC decoder has been listed as having just one external trigger. Are there others that have more triggers and will work with PWM?

The more doodads that have to be added to make a DCC decoder do what MyLocosound can do on DC only will inevitably make the total DCC solution more expensive than a MyLocosound.

Tony Walsham said:

Thanks Stan.

We are talking about a DCC decoder being used in a DC only or battery power situation.

What is this hybrid product and where would a user purchase such an item?

How much are they?

So far only one DCC decoder has been listed as having just one external trigger. Are there others that have more triggers and will work with PWM?

The more doodads that have to be added to make a DCC decoder do what MyLocosound can do on DC only will inevitably make the total DCC solution more expensive than a MyLocosound.

Tony

The tread seems to have several drifts. For DC only operation that really work like a DC locomotive on all types of DC, the only one I know of are the decoders inside the Lenz O scale locomotives. The decoders are unique to the locomotive they are in and not sold separately. On power up if they do not see a proper DCC signal the track voltage goes directly to the motor.

Several such as Phoenix (with multiple triggers) make sound decoders with battery backup to run on low DC track voltage. Most of the rest require higher track voltages before they operate.

Of the last category the only one really designed for DC use are QSI decoders. They sell a unit that goes in front of a DC power pack and controls individual sounds. But none of the above meet the criteria for low cost.

I use Lenz decoders in most of my locomotives because they pick up the DCC signal using capacitance pickup rather then voltage swings resulting in 100% packet reception even on dirty track. All their Gold series decoders have had this feature for years. You can get the signal through the track or through any of the radio receivers designed for DCC use. They also work if one rail only has the DCC signal so they can be used on short wheel base locomotives with plastic frogs.

Power can either be track, onboard (battery or supercap) or hybrid where onboard power is charged when the locomotive is on clean track and used when the locomotive is on dirty track.

These are currently the only decoders designed to work in dirty track situations adding a keep alive cap is a very week solution in comparison.

Sorry for the distraction, just thought I would interrupt a discussion that seems to be wondering with less then complete information.

Stan

Stanley Ames said:

Sorry for the distraction, just thought I would interrupt a discussion that seems to be wondering with less then complete information.

Stan…the less information we have, the more we wander…it’s just our thing.(https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-foot-in-mouth.gif)

Since you can’t get production LS QSI units any more (I have them all ha ha), my correction is just for information.

When you run a QSI on DC, if you flip the direction switch the horn starts, flip it back it stops.

Flip the direction switch twice and it turns the bell on, do it again off…

That’s real simple to do with a real direction switch or a remote relay. Cheap… so it met the cost objective. QSI has been making decoders with this feature for years, and basically you can do remote control of the sounds with no extra hardware on DC… (unless you have a power pack with no direction switch, then you have to spend 99 cents).

By sending sequences of polarity reversals, you can control most of the 32 sounds, and they do make a little box that will send those sequences for you, that is what Stan is referring to, although I guess he forgot the cheaper way of using the reversing switch. This is also oem’d by Atlas:

Yes, that direction switch flipping operation is there for regular DC operation where a switch is either fitted or could be fitted in the output leads.

How much does a suitable QSI DCC Decoder with a flipping capability on DC cost?

However, not so for battery R/C.
As far as I know there is no way you can do it with any brands of regular brands of battery R/C that use push buttons. Except perhaps where a stick type R/C has the direction controlled by a relay switched by a different channel. Certainly not with a stock Revolution as you cannot flip the direction change fast enough. You could of course add a dpdt relay controlled by a function command on the output leads. But then you can’t run the QSI on PWM. I know because I have tried. The slow speed operation of pretty well any DCC decoder becomes a bit erratic at best. Fitting PWM to Linear converters simply adds to the cost.

Plus, if you don’t have a constant 6 voltage output applied to the QSI it doesn’t work at all at idle. Let alone between direction changes.

That means you just use a battery R/C ESC where the reverse lockout voltage can be adjusted. That means even more cost.

Yes, I could control the sounds on the quantum with that device, if, if I were to stay at the power station when I run trains. I do not stay there, on the porch, in that corner, so I can push a button. That is why I have the TE.

I am not going with a whole (new/different) system, when my relay controlled DC system works well and does zactly what I want it to do. So, again, back to the OP’s question. An inexpensive sound (only) board for my smaller locomotives and critters would be of interest to me.