I did n’t bring a cake, but here is a pie for you…
cheers.
:lol: The forum pissing matches might be a tad low…
Beware…during the winter, around here; don’t eat the yellow snow…
Fred Mills said:Fr. Fred
Beware.....during the winter, around here; don't eat the yellow snow......
That shouldn’t be a problem, it’s the small foot prints you have to look out for. 
That’s why I like to XC ski; some people just don’t do that! Pristine silence out in the woods, fresh snow and no BS. What a relieve!
PS thanks for the updates on the OpSessions. One day I’ll be there!
Steve Featherkile said:Well, as I understand it, if you run a headlight bulb in series with the loco, a short will cause the bulb to light and the current will be limited to the bulb's draw, thus preventing magic smoke.
My locomotive is innocently trundling down the track, drawing, say, three amps at 14 volts, just for arguments sake. Some 1:29 kid puts a derailer on the track that he got at the swapmeet. My engineer sees it in time to prevent a total disaster, but not in time to prevent derailing the pilot truck, which then shorts out the line. The special light comes on in the throttle, indicating a problem. What I don't understand is how does this prevent the magic smoke from being released from the locomotive? There seems to be some assumed knowledge that I do not have. What am I missing?
Depends.
If it was that easy, everyone would have done it.
Let’s say you put a GOW bulb in series that draws 30MA.
Try running 3A through that filament and see how long it lasts.
Put a 110V screw-base bulb in, and you have to deal with the resistance of the filament and the loss of power to the rails associated with it.
That’s why they invented fuses and circuit breakers.
…which in most cases are less expensive than the light bulb, and can be purchased with the proper value of protection needed.
Fred Mills said:Fr. Fred and Advocate Dave,
.....which in most cases are less expensive than the light bulb, and can be purchased with the proper value of protection needed.
Would you mount a circuit breaker or a fuse on a Christmas tree, as an ornament? :lol: :lol:
No? Well, neither would I.
So why not watch and see what Kevin can do with an automotive headlight bulb on a homebuilt throttle, lets hope he posts a picture of the contraption along with a schematic. Just in case it needs some troubleshooting.
Getting back to the original theme, according to one member on the RhB Forum there is an interview with Axel Dietz, CEO of Märklin Holding GmbH in the latest issue of “Eisenbahn Magazin”. According to what has been quoted: Märklin got the whole shebang! Lock, stock and barrel! The whole enchilada! Excluding the real estate.
I’m trying to get a copy of the interview.
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:When we lived in Rendsburg, Germany in the late 1970s, we asked a local market to get us some Mexican groceries, including taco spices, enchilada sauce and tortillas. The proprietor called in a week or so, very proud that he had been able to comply with our request.
[b]The whole enchilada![/b]
We went to the store, picked up the goods and paid the bill. There was a short silence, then he shyly asked “Exactly what do you do with that stuff?” We can safely assume that Hr. Dietz is more of a world traveler than the market owner in Rendsburg!
That statement, plus the silence emanating from San Diego, Pennsylvania, Delaware or wherever, would seem to speak volumes as to the actual situation. Not surprising, as good business people generally don’t leave the ownership of their assets to chance.
Happy RRing,
Jerry Bowers
Jerry,
The descriptives " Märklin got the whole shebang! Lock, stock and barrel! The whole enchilada!" are mine, not the way Mr. Dietz phrased it. As soon as I get a copy I’ll translate.
As to getting Mexican “stuff”, back in '92 we shipped some of those supplies from Toronto to Vancouver Island, some of it was just not available out there.
But the times are a-changing.
Steve Featherkile said:You're absolutley right. My previous posts had a lot of assumed knowledge. My apologies. It's easy to forget that it took me a long time to learn the intricacies of circuits and nowdays I just assume everybody knows this.
OK, I'm trying to understand this. My locomotive is innocently trundling down the track, drawing, say, three amps at 14 volts, just for arguments sake. Some 1:29 kid puts a derailer on the track that he got at the swapmeet. My engineer sees it in time to prevent a total disaster, but not in time to prevent derailing the pilot truck, which then shorts out the line. The special light comes on in the throttle, indicating a problem. What I don't understand is how does this prevent the magic smoke from being released from the locomotive? There seems to be some assumed knowledge that I do not have. What am I missing?
I’ll try to explain it as simply as I can. If anything I say sounds patronizing, forgive me, it is not my intention.
The 10 Amp rating on your throttle is its continuous output. It can keep up 10 Amps all day. But when you get a short, the current goes through the roof. For example, a good car battery can deliver perhaps 600Amps on short circuit. Your 10 Amp throttle, drawing its supply from the household supply, may go much higher for the first instant of the short. Hence it needs to be protected against short circuits and overloads (an overload is when you try to pull a sustained 12 Amps from it).
Protection can be obtained by a fuse. This works fine except that every time you get a short you blow the fuse, which equals money. And what happens if you get a short that you can’t immediately find. You think it’s that derailed loco, so you take it off the track, plug in another fuse, and apply power. The fuse blows again (another $1 lost). You find some debris across the tracks and figure that’s it. Wrong, and another fuse blows. You eventually discover that someone has dropped a nail across the tracks in a tunnel.
Some power packs use a circuit breaker instead of a fuse. Nothing has to be replaced when it “pops”. You just reset it. The problem with circuit breakers is that they’re slow. A really high quality industrial grade circuit breaker can take up to 3 full cycles (on AC or 6 half-cycles on rectified DC) before it breaks the circuit. And those cycles are short-circuit current: 600Amps if you were powering your throttle with a car battery. That’s enough to burn the flanges off you pilot trcuk, blow a big pit in the rail, and totally fry the innards of your throttle.
So a fuse is much better protection, since a good fuse will blow before the short circuit current reaches its first current peak.
Now for the light bulb. When a short occurs, a light bulb won’t blow. It’ll just light up and then limit the current to whatever it needs. If you use a 12 Watt bulb in a 12 Volt circuit, the maximum current in that circuit will be 1 Amp. Since your throttle can handle 10 Amps, a current of 1 Amp won’t bother it.
It is an incidental benefit that the glowing light bulb will tell you that you have a problem. So you leave the throttle on and take the loco off the tracks. If the light goes out, then you know that you solved the problem. If it doesn’t, then you know that the problem is elsewhere. When you eventually find the fault, the bulb goes out and you’re ready to go. Cost = $0, and the innards of your throttle are intact, as is your light bulb.
Now for the wiring. Put a 10 Amp fuse in your throttle as a back-up. Take one of the wires that goes from the throttle to the track (doesn’t matter which one) and connect it from the throttle to a 4 position rotary switch, or you could use 4 seperate switches. That’s the “throttle side” of the switches(s). Run a wire from each switch to a different wattage of light bulb. And run a wire from the other side of the light bulbs to the track. Since each bulb was selected for its wattage (therefore maximum current rating), you can select which current rating you want using the 4 switches.
I would suggest that the 4 current ratings would be 1 Amp, 2 Amps, 5 Amps and 9 Amps (but you might want other values). Hell, you could have dozen switches and bulbs, giving you 1/2 Amp increments if you like.
In a 12 Volt circuit:
a 12 Watt bulb means 1 Amp max. current.
24 Watts means 2 Amps max.
60 Watts means 5 Amps max.
108 Watts means 9 Amps max.
The last 2 wattages are available but clumsy due to their size and brightness, so I would use a bunch of smaller bulbs in parallel - keeping one visible and the rest hidden out of the way somewhere (well ventilated).
Now for the down side. 12 Volt bulbs are readily available. I’ve never checked on the availability of bulbs rated at 14, 18, or 24 Volts (although some big trucks use a 24 Volt system, so they may exist). And the only thing you can do to hurt light bulbs is exceed their maximum voltage rating. But 12 Volts is plenty for realistic speeds in most locos (although I can’t speak for DCC systems - I’m talking strictly about simple track power).
I didn’t invent this circuit, and it’s not new. It was built into my first controller - an old TriAng-Hornby unit from the '60s. But when Linn Westcott said is was a good choice for a transister throttle, well that was good enough for me. I’m amazed at how quickly people have forgotten such an elegantly simple and reliable, not to mention low cost, solution.
Curmudgeon said:
Depends. If it was that easy, everyone would have done it. Let's say you put a GOW bulb in series that draws 30MA. Try running 3A through that filament and see how long it lasts.Put a 110V screw-base bulb in, and you have to deal with the resistance of the filament and the loss of power to the rails associated with it.
That’s why they invented fuses and circuit breakers.
It is that easy, and lots of manufacturers used to do it.
You couldn’t get 3A through a GOW bulb even if you used a crowbar. A 30MA bulb will limit the current in the circuit to 30MA.
A 110V bulb would work, but it wouldn’t get very very bright on a short circuit. Therefore you would lose the incidental benefit of visible short circuit indication. Secondly, you would have to determine the correct wattage of the bulb. A 60 Watt bulb is 60 Watts at its rated voltage: 110 V in your example. At 12 volts it would have a different wattage rating.
Yes, there is a power loss associated with the light bulb. But since the throttle draws its power from the household supply, the power loss is insignificant. It might be a different story when using battery power.
Fuses and circuit breakers were around long before transistor throttles. This was seen as a better way to do it.
For someone who has often professed expertise on matters electrical, there are clearly some gaps in your knowledge. I understand now why you advocate battery power.
Kevin,
I remember that little red light on the Triang casing. Seems like it always had a bit of a glow and then a brilliant shine at the incidence that the unit got very hot and then shutdown. Now that has only taken me nearly fifty years to learn the significance of the bulb in that circuit.
USED to is the key word.
You are rapidly becoming an interesting person.
I do hope you do NOT use proper electronic protection devices for your on-board electronics.
You will make manufacturers of same a lot of money.
The Navy hasn’t used light load protection since WWII.
Last one I saw was on an old model railroad, probably 15 years ago.
Go ahead, spread your expertise.
I tell them how to do it right.
Doing it “on the cheap” isn’t the best way.
Good Lord.
Damn shame the site owner has rules to keep anyone from calling you a moron.
Otehrwise, someone probably would.
You just hit the list, Bucko.
Gentlemen.
Anyone who has read my posts since I joined this forum will know that I have fought against the somewhat condescending attitude of some members, particularly when it’s directed against newcomers to this site and/or our hobby. I believe there are no stupid questions, but there sure are some stupid answers at times.
Unfortunately it seems that instead of helping some to adopt some simple good manners, the negativity has begun to rub off on me. I see myself becoming what I fought against: a cranky old fart. And I’m not happy about. It’s clearly time to get back to model building.
My thanks to Bob for making this site available and for his light touch moderation.
I won’t be checking back in here, so if anyone wants to blow me a raspbaerry, you might as well save you breath.
As I said in my original post, that some refused to read; “I’ll cheer your successes, and buy you a bheer”…or something to that effect…
I’m all for success in coming up with simple ways to cure problems, and always will be.
I still think that shooting the li'll buggar that shorted out the thing in the first place would be high on my adgenda.....!!!!.......notice the humour ...please, notice the humour......!!!!The bigest looser is the person that can’t take the heat, so I’m told…and I seem to be getting the heat thrown at me on a regular schedual…but I’m not the guy leaving…
We all have to accept the fact that we can’t all be correct all the time, and we have to swallow our pride and just learn from our mistakes.
I thought that Kevin was possibly going to come up with some simple solution, and I was supportive of his attempts at research and question asking, as per my original note that he didn’t read in full.
I got shot down, and didn’t throw dirt in his face, and no-one else did…so what in heck is his problem ?
Must be a lack of a good holy water and, sense of humour; but then I can’t be judgemental on that score.
I’m staying out of this cat fight.
…other than to support the good Padre of course.
One day I will be able to break bread and down a wee drop with him.