Large Scale Central

LGB 22871 French Mikado

Problem Solving
#1

Hello ,Everyone…

I’m brand new here,and want to start off with a question ,or ten…

Very quick back story…

My father and i wanted to purchase an LGB Mikado…it was to pull some green passenger cars…
I found a store that still had a used one…so we went to have a look…
Once in the store,the owner shows it to us,but also points out the Beautiful 22871 Mikado,which is Brand New…and GREEN!!
He tells us it is MTS ready…has smoke…lights…and “European Steam Sound” …

Today we did a test run…NO SOUND… It was not made with sound.

I know i can very easily add an LGB European Steam Sound Unit to the model…but i also know it will not be in sync with the drive wheels…

I’ve installed LGB American Steam Modules in some of his other trains,and i know they go by the power pack,chugging before the train moves,or not kicking in till the power reaches a certain point…

SOOOOOOOOOOOO…

Question #1 Does anyone know of a European Sound Module that will fix my issue???

Question #2 Am i missing the sound/capacitor/speaker setup when i search??? (all i find in LGB sound units is the black box “self contained” units i mentioned earlier)

Thank you in advance for any and all help or info…

Rich

#2

Rich, Massoth or ESU will no doubt make a sound unit (as well as DCC decoder) for this popular locomotive. Once the LGB #65000 Euro Steam sound unit is reprogrammed, then chuff ‘synch’ is achievable. Alas, ‘synched’ chuff from standstill is at a penalty, as the unit will have chuff runaway as voltage increases. I sacrifice high speed chuff and programme the sound unit for acceptable low speed (chuff) operation. On all my ‘dedicated’ sound units in specific locomotives, I am able to achieve chuff commencement within one-quarter revolution, after reprogramming. In my LGB sound units installed in ‘sound’ cars, then the particular locomotive operating chatracteristic (low speed current draw/start voltage) will determine chuff commencement point. I have lost favour with the #65011 sound storage capacitor and use four ni-cads to power the ‘standing’ sounds. This enables constant low speed operation without worrying about the capacitors running down and enables instant chuff/whistle at startup (no high speed run to power up the capacitor bank). Massoth or ESU make a cable, but one is easily able to make the cable to connect to the sound unit input. I am suprised that the Mikado was supplied without sound (maybe only the American roadbname Mikados came with sound?). Pictured is the cable required if you decide to not use the #65011 sound storage unit. The battery pack is far superior and if a suitable charging circuit is installed then the battery pack may be permanently fitted to the tender ofr loco body.

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/tim_brien/_forumfiles/lsca.JPG)

#3

Tim, my LGB 141R most certainly has sound from new - it is, however, identical to that in the US-version, and also in the Aster/LGB White Pass mike.

The best of ALL the easy to obtain after-market sounds for this loco is the Phoenix sound unit, although the ESU sound system, quite common here in Yoorup, might just have it beat.

tac
www.ovgrs.org

PS - welcome to the madhouse. :slight_smile:

#4

Richard, Welcome.
I may be wrong, but that unit should be equipped with factory sound.
Open the smokebox and see if a volume knob is protruding. It might be turned off, or down.
If there is a knob, and you still don’t have sound, I’ll help you further.

#5

Thank you ,Everyone… For both the quick replies,and the help and info… I don’t have the unit with me,but i do have a few things via the internet… First…a page with some official info…no mention of sound…not even in the pdf version of the owners manual links,on the lower right side of the page… http://www.champex.net/lgb_produktdatenbank_d-e/produkt.nsf/bede3443927b513dc125691c0045fb87/26df8f2ca6eb7bbcc1256def0055130202ec.html?OpenDocument Then…a pic of the unit…from a museum (possibly) …showing (right side…center) 3 pieces of electrical equipment,supposedly the “decoder” “sound module” “capacitor pack”

(http://www.mylargescale.com/1stclass/rwbrashear/LGB%2022872%20SNCF%20Mikado/Mikado_Exploded__Circled_11_30_2005.JPG)

(http://www.mylargescale.com/1stclass/rwbrashear/LGB%2022872%20SNCF%20Mikado/Mikado_Exploded__Onboard_11_30_2005.JPG)

pics borrowed from a thread on another board…and they say they are the 22872 Mikado… SOOOOOOOOOOO…putting all this together…i think i’m safe in saying…i have the 22871,no sound unit…versus the 22872,unit with sound… ANNNNNNNNNNND…that my father and i are only looking to run the unit indoors…in Analog mode (dad is in his 70’s,and not really interested in battery power ,or the MTS system) BUT…I can figure out some of the MTS stuff…as i did buy him an MTS starter set,because he has one of the beautiful disney Steamers,with factory MTS… and i’m running on and on… so here is what i believe i want… European Steam Sound,for the Engine… Tied to the MTS would be best…I think…because i will not get the “runaway” and or “lag” in my sound by being tied to just my power supply… Do i have everyone completely confused now???

#6

Hey Richard, WELCOME ABOARD!

#7

Sorry…so caught up in trying to find options,before i call the seller and find out why he misrepresented this unit…

Thank You ,Ric…and Thank You ,Everyone Else…for the very warm Welcome…

#8

Rich,
the penny just dropped. Look to the loco part number, #22871. The ‘1’ at the end signifies that sound is not fitted. I was not aware that the Mikado was made without sound. If you look to the photographs you supplied, then the part number ends in ‘2’. The ‘2’ indicates a sound equipped model. Factory supplied sound is far superior to the LGB #6500X series digital sound units and worth the extra dollars.

#9

Thanks for confirming my suspicions ,Tim…

now i just wonder if i can find the factory sound components to correct the issue???

i’ve been searching and searching,but cannot find any reference to the parts anywhere…no part numbers…no descriptions…beyond this…

http://www.lgbworld.com/service_manuals/22872-1.PDF

…and i don’t have a clue what parts i’d honestly need to ask for…obviously ,the speaker…but i wonder ,would LGB possibly say “yes we have exactly what you need to make a 871 into an 872” …

or better yet…

If this were one of you, How would you get a sound unit to sync with the drive wheels?? i honestly am not opposed to putting an aftermarket unit in the tender,if i can get it to sync…

#10

Right now you’ll be extremely lucky to get ANY response out of LGB. As LGB they no longer exist, and Maerklin seem to be substantially less than interested in supplying any spare parts.

Not sure where you go from here in the USA.

I can ask over here in UK if you like - we have a very good LGB dealer about forty miles up the road - the only one in this part of the UK.

tac
www.ovgrs.org

#11

Rich,
‘synching’ is subjective. I believe the American roadname Mikados came with the four chuff option. For many the sound is too ‘busy’ and the listener prefers some evidence of a distinct chuff interval and sticks with the two chuff option. In so far as programming an aftermarket #65000 Euro sound unit, then, as in my first reponse, it is possible but at the expense of chuff runaway at higher voltages. There are far superior sound units available in Europe, so I would not be limiting myself to an aftermarket LGB #65000 only. ESU has received rave reviews for its sound systems.

   If your loco is MTS fitted then I would think a very old DCC decoder (MTS 1) maybe.  Europe would be your choice of source for LGB spares,  but if available,  then the sound unit may be nearly as much as the locomotive that you are purchasing.  You will need not only the sound boards but the axle driven synch unit as well, including axle and sensor.  If the factory sound model is not available then an aftermarket system is the way to go.  You will, however,  need a LGB programmer (or that supplied by the manufacturer of your choice) to enable the CV's to be adjusted to better synch your sound.  Unless this loco is a real 'bargain' then pass up von it.  The first series of Mikados had a gearbox problem, leading to catastrophic failure.  Units sold were repaired under warranty.  I would be suspicious of this purchase as it seems to be a very old 'new stock' model and may be one of the early trouble prone models.  I would be reluctant to take the word of the dealer as he even got the sound question wrong.
#12

I agree completely with young Tim down there. As I noted in my post, ESU make a sound sytem that can be applied this model, but the infrastructure installation is fearsome complex. Current pricing with the euro/$ means that it may well cost you around $800 to do.

Tim’s comment about the ephemeral character of the early mikes is also valid - I had three before I got one that lasted a complete circuit of the 75 foot layout.

tac
www.ovgrs.org

#13

First of all…Let me thank all of you for keeping up with me on this…and for offering your honest opinions…

and second…i just finished talking to a very helpful man at Phoenix…

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO…here’s what i’ve come up with…

We’ll run the unit indoors…in Analog Mode…

Phoenix has a European Steam Sound Unit…with the Shrill Whistle…so this covers the fact that dad and i wanted variety (an engine with a new sound)

Phoenix sound bite… http://www.phoenixsound.com/library/european/euro.htm

the Phoenix unit can be installed in the tender…BONUS!!! ,as i’d rather not be poking around inside such an expensive engine…

the Phoenix units “Chuffs” can be altered by the number of magnets added to the wheel ( 1 chuff per rotation-one magnet…1 chuff every half rotation-2 magnets)

the Phoenix unit will also give me bell and whistle sounds ,from the magnets between the ties…

Am i leaving anything out??? beyond the fact that i’m not sure yet what comes with a Phoenix unit (do i need a seperate speaker…seperate reed switch for the bell and whistle…seperate battery/capacitor pack,to get standing sound)

now i’m off to read up on installing a Phoenix unit…

#14

The Phoenix is a great system. Most models come with everything you need. All you have to do is supply track power, connect the reed switches if you want them (chuff & track magnets) and connect the speaker and volume control. All screw terminals, no soldering required.

I have a couple of them. Been very happy for a long tome.

#15

<<the Phoenix units “Chuffs” can be altered by the number of magnets added to the wheel ( 1 chuff per rotation-one magnet…1 chuff every half rotation-2 magnets)>>

1 magnet gives you 2 chuffs per rev of wheel.
2 opposite each other magnets give you 4 per rev.
I glue my 2 magnets on the axle of a wheel and mount the reed switch on the truck with more glue.

#16

Thanks ,Jon…with what i found on the Phoenix site,and your (and everyone elses) input,i really do think this might be the right way for me to go…the fella told me to go with the PB9 EURO version,so i’m guessing i can get that and a speaker and be ready to go??? if it includes the 3 reed switches i’d need…chuff…bell…whistle… and thank you too,John…i was guessing at the chuff count of 1 and 2… but tell me this,if you know??? i see this setup…magnets on the drive wheels,with a reed switch…

(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/pimanjc/K4%20Folder/K4-Loco-DrumToReedSoundPickup-5024r.jpg)

and magnets on the tender axle…again with a reed switch…

(http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips4/james_sound_switch_small.jpg)

wouldn’t the magnets on the axle cause the chuff to be so much quicker than putting them on the drive wheels??? is it just a matter of choice?? i almost think i could get away with one magnet on the axle,where it would take 2 on the drive wheel,to achieve roughly the same pace… i’m honestly not trying to make this overly difficult…just sort of brain storming… and again…any and all opinions and info really is appreciated…

#17

Richard,
I ain’t that much of a purist.
Sometimes it just easier to work with a tender.
It’s a little bit different story with a geared loco, but I digress.

No one but you would know the chuffs are not perfectly aligned with the drivers.

If the unit would have had factory sound, you would have been disappointed, as LGB in their wisdom delivers them with 2 chuffs per rev. You have to go in and reset some DIP’s to get four.

#18

Thats what i wanted to hear ,John…just the simple fact that i could probably get equal (if not better) sound by doing it myself… and since you mention PURIST ,i’ll show you where we are going… my dad saw a set of these cars last year,and he really liked them,so we bought a set…

(http://home.btconnect.com/kgrmodels/31300Coach.jpg)

they had this Black Aristo Engine on display with the set…

(http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/Aristocraft_Mikado_21512nyc.jpg)

and dad really liked the look…but i convinced him i could find a Green Southern Engine but this green Aristo Engine that goes with them won’t navigate his 4’ curves…

(http://www.dragon-gscale.co.uk/ekmps/shops/dragongscale/images/aristocraft-pacific-4-6-2-2479-p.jpg)

so i went on a search for the now unobtainable LGB Green Southern Engine…and came up dry…

(http://www.regelspur.lgb-bibliothek.info/assets/images/autogen/a_25872.jpg)

so i then found a used LGB Union Pacific Mikado…and i thought maybe i could change the road name on it…

(http://www.regelspur.lgb-bibliothek.info/assets/images/autogen/a_23872.jpg)

but when we looked at it,the shop owner says “there’s also this Green French Version” …

(http://www.bigtrainworld.nl/catalog/images/lgb22871.jpg)

(http://www.wholesaletrains.com/SMImages/LG5790.jpg)

and that’s why i’m here today…trying to add sound to a French Engine…an engine that has no real roadname markings…so i can turn it into a Phantom Southern Engine…and pull cars that were never meant to go with it… Now how’s that for a roundabout way of running our Railroad???

#19

Sounds like it works for you, Richard. It is your railroad, right?

Rule #1 - Your railroad, your rules. My railroad, my rules. (use which ever applies)

Rule #2 - If doubt exists, refer to rule #1.

#20

Well ,Ric…it is Dads Railroad…so he’s the only guy that needs to really be happy with it :slight_smile:

i just feel so darn bad that the shop-owner misrepresented the Engine when he sold it to him…he talked and talked and talked about how great it was because it had the European sound in it…and then we find it has no sound what-so-ever…

were i not worried about creating bad-blood with the owner,i’d like to call him and tell him i’d appreciate it if he would supply a Phoenix sound unit so i could turn the train into what he promised we were buying…since he is a listed Phoenix dealer…