Large Scale Central

Letter From NMRA President Charlie Getz

General Discussion
#41

Shawn (napkin builder) Viggiano said:

Correct me if I am wrong, it seems that G scale is doing much better in the UK then here? Why is that…? Could it be because of the smaller space, cost is not an issue. I also see a lot of nice kits that seem to be much more affordable then our US kits.

Another reason, not yet mentioned, is that there are literally dozens of “restored” railroads in the UK that are visited by the leisure classes (people with kids and a little money,) and which include rides and live steam engines. Read the house magazine of any such railway, and it will have comments about folk spending their small disposable income on leisure, and that the railway has to compete with the beach, amusement parks, etc.

In the UK especially, kids get dragged to ride on a train by their nostalgic parents, who recall when steam was everywhere (until the 1960s, so baby boomers still remember them.) The restored railways are scenic and geared for a “day out with the family” - they include snack bars and local attractions accessed by the train. No-one in the UK is more than a 2 hour drive from a real tourist railway. And most can be accessed by taking a (boring) service train.

Here in the US there was an apocalypse for train travel by baby boomers. In the 1950s it was all about cars, and in the 1960s it faded away. Amtrak’s lack of support from the population, and lack of service to most places, means that most people in their 40s, 50s or 60s have never ridden on a train. Any train!
Except perhaps at Disneyland. (Walt must be turning in his grave.)

#42

Agreed, exposure to trains is helpful – but the reason for little USA interest in the hobby of creating with trains or boats or model planes…

CONCLUSION:
Showing people reflecting on the decisions to be made, the satisfaction in making them, and the construction outcome, is the message needed – plus others giving kudos for the outcome!

The “stimulate me!” culture is very encompassing and the products to do so are ever present.
The model train hobby is not one of those products and needs to be marked as a self-satisfaction and self-stimulation hobby.

Any agreement with the conclusion? Disagreement?

#43

I will also add the the closest most Americans have ever gotten to small narrow gauge trains, has probably been at amusement parks like Knott’s Berry Farm or the Disney parks.

Everything else is 99.99% full blown standard gauge.

#44

Vic Smith said:

Shawn (napkin builder) Viggiano said:

Correct me if I am wrong, it seems that G scale is doing much better in the UK then here? Why is that…? Could it be because of the smaller space, cost is not an issue. I also see a lot of nice kits that seem to be much more affordable then our US kits.

To add to Alans comments, one big advantage the Brits and the Euros still have is there is no stigma to building a small layout with less than 8’ dia curves. Layouts with R1 curves are still quite normal unlike here where I cannot recall a single R1 based outdoor layout being discussed here in years. If anyone considers it they are almost instantly warned against it and to use the widest possible turns even if that means ending up with a great big circle and moving the garage a few feet.

OK I’m being facetious but my point is valid. Small layouts are actively discouraged here in the US. This has been confirmed in the big ticket new items being offered for sale of late which require ever larger diameter requirements. The intent of the warning is well meaning, but the effect IMO has been to effectively discourage participation based on the on-line presentment that unless you have a 1/4 acre to begin with and a large trust fund fto buy all those shiny 3 foot long engines, LS is really not an option for most space strapped people.

Another factor is that there is still a very strong following of small narrow gauge feldbahn and tramway railroad modelling on the continent and in Britain, this means there is still a strong demand for the small 2 axle stuff that’s fallen out of favor here, look at whats been the big sellers here, they are all BIG, big steamers, big dismals, big cars, and looooong passenger cars, by contrast the smaller stuff from LGB, Piko and HLW barely clicks on the radar anymore.

I wish there was some way to shake people out of this funk, but even at shows I see people looking at my layout, but still being enamored with and wanting the big stuff like the yard long K and a rake of yard long Accu coaches. Its a completely different mindset.

So true Vic I even see it on the forums. You get more people posting and responding to topics related to the bigger stuff vs the 4 wheeled cars etc… I have seen it with my posts since going to the smaller live steam engines and rolling stock. The interest is just not their. Its too bad because one can make great small industrial type railroads that require little space and not expensive. Just what a new person needs to see.

#45

I think about age 3 is a good time to start.,…

#46

Good one, Bart…perfect picture…

#47

Vic Smith said:

I will also add the the closest most Americans have ever gotten to small narrow gauge trains, has probably been at amusement parks like Knott’s Berry Farm or the Disney parks.

Everything else is 99.99% full blown standard gauge.

Vic, as usual I am the exception to the rule. The first train ride day trip we took was to ride on the East Broad Top. I would do that again, if it was still running.

#48

I (we) did 3 laps behind #12 yesterday at Tweetsie!!! What a Glorious Day…spent 10 hours at the park…I was beat this morning!

#49

Wendell Hanks said:

Agreed, exposure to trains is helpful – but the reason for little USA interest in the hobby of creating with trains or boats or model planes…

CONCLUSION:
Showing people reflecting on the decisions to be made, the satisfaction in making them, and the construction outcome, is the message needed – plus others giving kudos for the outcome!

The “stimulate me!” culture is very encompassing and the products to do so are ever present.
The model train hobby is not one of those products and needs to be marked as a self-satisfaction and self-stimulation hobby.

Any agreement with the conclusion? Disagreement?

Wendell,
I sort-of agree, but think this ‘stimulate me’ question is overblown. Young people are doing lots of creative things - making their own videos, for example. With the world shrinking due to faster dissemination of information, everyone expects to be amused immediately, rather than later - but they still enjoy a ‘later’ event too.

The availability of a vast array of beautifully detailed models tends to discourage newcomers from starting to build their own railroads, and from getting the personal satisfaction from doing so? But they are still being creative and making things - improved r/c cars to race, better hovercraft/helicopters. Have you seen the quantity and variety of after-market parts in your local r/c car/plane store?

Some of the kids who were brought up on “Thomas” will re-discover trains later in life. Whether they will have the railroad made on their personal 3D printer, or maybe buy a whole layout ready-to-run is irrelevant, as long as they are getting their hands dirty.

#50

Vic Smith said:

Shawn (napkin builder) Viggiano said:

Correct me if I am wrong, it seems that G scale is doing much better in the UK then here? Why is that…? Could it be because of the smaller space, cost is not an issue. I also see a lot of nice kits that seem to be much more affordable then our US kits.

To add to Alans comments, one big advantage the Brits and the Euros still have is there is no stigma to building a small layout with less than 8’ dia curves. Layouts with R1 curves are still quite normal unlike here where I cannot recall a single R1 based outdoor layout being discussed here in years. If anyone considers it they are almost instantly warned against it and to use the widest possible turns even if that means ending up with a great big circle and moving the garage a few feet.

OK I’m being facetious but my point is valid. Small layouts are actively discouraged here in the US. This has been confirmed in the big ticket new items being offered for sale of late which require ever larger diameter requirements. The intent of the warning is well meaning, but the effect IMO has been to effectively discourage participation based on the on-line presentment that unless you have a 1/4 acre to begin with and a large trust fund fto buy all those shiny 3 foot long engines, LS is really not an option for most space strapped people.

Another factor is that there is still a very strong following of small narrow gauge feldbahn and tramway railroad modelling on the continent and in Britain, this means there is still a strong demand for the small 2 axle stuff that’s fallen out of favor here, look at whats been the big sellers here, they are all BIG, big steamers, big dismals, big cars, and looooong passenger cars, by contrast the smaller stuff from LGB, Piko and HLW barely clicks on the radar anymore.

I wish there was some way to shake people out of this funk, but even at shows I see people looking at my layout, but still being enamored with and wanting the big stuff like the yard long K and a rake of yard long Accu coaches. Its a completely different mindset.

the most inspiring GRR of all time (for me) was the Daisy Beach in 7/8ths…WOW, that little piece of RR-eality continues to make me smile!..I love the ‘little locos’ and such…and here I am tying off a new 13 x 34 layout… facepalm

#51

Ah the Daisy Beach RR. That had to be one of my all time faverite layouts. Everything was scratch built and simple but tons of charm. For those that bnever saw it http://home.cogeco.ca/~daisybeach/ This RR is what really got my gears going for my layout.

#52

I think there is some truth but I think he skipped a generation. In my experience with a lot of groups I have belonged to. It is the Boomers kids who are not the joiners. I read a great article on the tendencies of generations and I tried to find it link it but I couldn’t.

But the whole point of the article is that it isnt the latest generation that is the problem. It is the Hippy generation (I’m not sure that is what you call them.) A large majority of that generation did not want to join what their parents did. So we have this gap.

However, my generation (I think its called generation X, I’m 37) are those that will join things, but they dont know about these organizations unless grandparents was a member, because parents certainly weren’t.

Its interesting and no one has a good solution.

#53

Pete –

Thanks for a response to my conclusion that the pre-30+ population is a “stimulate me” population seeking experiences that come at them, stimulating them from them being a ready receptor – NOT a initiator of their own experience, e.g. the essential in our hobby.

As a 45 year teaching college prof. with a 26,000 population student body, our Speech Department has surveyed students as to what they like to DO. Very rare are achievement hobbies listed – e.g. musical instruments, painting, drawing, photography (not self -photos), family scrap books (remember the craze 10 years ago), pottery (ceramic classes 15 years ago over-flowed), anything self-creative.

Instead, they list very little self-initiated activity. In class, I list interests that require self-stimulation and ask what do their friends like – go to clubs, dance, party, concerts, Facebook, twitter,

Where can we go, what can we do, what can we see, what can we hear is what stimulates this age group. Who gives the most stimulation for the most buck spent.

REMEDY: Show, demonstrate, that self-initiated interests do produce big positive feelings along with personal growth from the skills learned. Our hobby is one of those sources. Any articles in Garden RR demonstrating – even an editorial – on how successful demonstration led to personal interest in our hobby?

So will the 30+ year old parents translate the “self-initiation” message by example to their own children? Instead, will the I-pod remain the mainstay source for stimulation – plus the video games and other stimulation sources. …or…??

#54

In the latest issue of the Swiss Review (Swiss ex-pats mag) was an article about stamp collecting. The gist: collections are practically worthless. Collectors’ clubs: a bunch of old farts.

Some of the collectors sell their “whole works” (all valid postage) to dealers who sell the stamps to people who, for various reasons, still send “snail mail”.

But to be honest, if I would have time to worry about the decline of this or any other hobby, perhaps I would worry. Nope, life is too short, no time for that!

#55

HJ and all:

Try “selling” the idea to college students there is a “intrinsic” value to learning apart from the “extrinsic” value of collecting grades for resale to enter graduate school. Hobbies are intrinsic valued.

No sale.

Hobbies are for intrinsic value – who cares if the worth of the hobby is outside of the person who experiences it. Who cares about monetary worth? Those who have little sense of intrinsic value in learning.
The public schools train kids to accomplish for extrinsic reasons. There is a reason why THE most frequent question asked in school, by students, teachers, and parents alike, is: “WHAT DID YOU GET?”
instead of “What did you learn?” We encourage trading the value of learning for grades.

#56

Interesting discussion. In my life, my cousin was one of those kids who always had a game boy, or whatever, in his hands. He was a video game freak. He and my other cousin’s husband would sit and talk about video games at family gatherings. I figured the kid was lost. This past weekend my aunt, his mother, told me that he was out in the garage rebuilding a pick up truck. Ok, he gets all of his “how to” answers off the internet. But this button pushing fiend is now turning wrenches and learning how to actually do something. My point is, maybe some of those “entertain me” kids will grow up and figure out how temporary that kind of stimulation is. If they do, they may seek a hobby where there is something a bit more permanent.

I am an optimist most of the time. I cant see writing off a whole group of folks, some of them will surprise you.

#57

Model trains as a hobby is nowhere close to dying.

Membership in the NMRA on the other hand may very well be dying.

If you want to “play” with trains go ahead and do it. Do you have to join a club and pay membership fees to do this? Nope.

#58

As David said above:
“I am an optimist most of the time. I cant see writing off a whole group of folks, some of them will surprise you.”

I agree. Identifying a problem is not a prescription for refusing a solution.

For me, the solution is to promote the advantages of self-initiation

REMEDY: Show, demonstrate, that self-initiated interests do produce big positive feelings along with personal growth from the skills learned. Our hobby is one of those sources. Any articles in Garden RR demonstrating – even an editorial – on successful demonstration of personal interest in our hobby would be a start.

Take a page from the weight control and exercise industry with personal testimony and plenty of before and after visuals.

#59

Jake Smith said:

I think there is some truth but I think he skipped a generation. In my experience with a lot of groups I have belonged to. It is the Boomers kids who are not the joiners. I read a great article on the tendencies of generations and I tried to find it link it but I couldn’t.

But the whole point of the article is that it isnt the latest generation that is the problem. It is the Hippy generation (I’m not sure that is what you call them.) A large majority of that generation did not want to join what their parents did. So we have this gap.

However, my generation (I think its called generation X, I’m 37) are those that will join things, but they dont know about these organizations unless grandparents was a member, because parents certainly weren’t.

Its interesting and no one has a good solution.

Jake Im part of your generation. I have read that article. There are a few articles about each generation. It is interesting to read and really make sense. Our generation X is the generation that trusts no one. Its so true.

#60

I’m a Ham Radio Operator too…we see the same thing from the outside-except there has been an influx in Licensees over the last few years. What some decry as a dying hobby has more folks involved than ever before.

Much like Ham Radio, LS Trains offers a learning curve that some are afraid to take on. Plus an investment regarding time and money; both seem to be on the short end of supply these days.

IF I hadn’t gotten ‘in’ when I did (good economy, cash to spare, easy credit) I’d not be here today. Fortunately I’m riding the wave generated back in 2004/5 utilizing what I bought (and subsequently stored when I had to move) then and really only have to invest the labor to get running again.

Further on Vic’s point…the smaller GRR’s could be a way to save/reignite the LS Train hobby in the US. If the newcomer was exposed to smaller gigs like the Daisy Beach and others, understanding that it doesn’t take 1200’ of track to make a fine GRR, they might ‘bite’.