I (we) did 3 laps behind #12 yesterday at Tweetsie!!! What a Glorious Day…spent 10 hours at the park…I was beat this morning!
Wendell Hanks said:
Agreed, exposure to trains is helpful – but the reason for little USA interest in the hobby of creating with trains or boats or model planes…
CONCLUSION:
Showing people reflecting on the decisions to be made, the satisfaction in making them, and the construction outcome, is the message needed – plus others giving kudos for the outcome!The “stimulate me!” culture is very encompassing and the products to do so are ever present.
The model train hobby is not one of those products and needs to be marked as a self-satisfaction and self-stimulation hobby.Any agreement with the conclusion? Disagreement?
Wendell,
I sort-of agree, but think this ‘stimulate me’ question is overblown. Young people are doing lots of creative things - making their own videos, for example. With the world shrinking due to faster dissemination of information, everyone expects to be amused immediately, rather than later - but they still enjoy a ‘later’ event too.
The availability of a vast array of beautifully detailed models tends to discourage newcomers from starting to build their own railroads, and from getting the personal satisfaction from doing so? But they are still being creative and making things - improved r/c cars to race, better hovercraft/helicopters. Have you seen the quantity and variety of after-market parts in your local r/c car/plane store?
Some of the kids who were brought up on “Thomas” will re-discover trains later in life. Whether they will have the railroad made on their personal 3D printer, or maybe buy a whole layout ready-to-run is irrelevant, as long as they are getting their hands dirty.
Vic Smith said:
Shawn (napkin builder) Viggiano said:
Correct me if I am wrong, it seems that G scale is doing much better in the UK then here? Why is that…? Could it be because of the smaller space, cost is not an issue. I also see a lot of nice kits that seem to be much more affordable then our US kits.
To add to Alans comments, one big advantage the Brits and the Euros still have is there is no stigma to building a small layout with less than 8’ dia curves. Layouts with R1 curves are still quite normal unlike here where I cannot recall a single R1 based outdoor layout being discussed here in years. If anyone considers it they are almost instantly warned against it and to use the widest possible turns even if that means ending up with a great big circle and moving the garage a few feet.
OK I’m being facetious but my point is valid. Small layouts are actively discouraged here in the US. This has been confirmed in the big ticket new items being offered for sale of late which require ever larger diameter requirements. The intent of the warning is well meaning, but the effect IMO has been to effectively discourage participation based on the on-line presentment that unless you have a 1/4 acre to begin with and a large trust fund fto buy all those shiny 3 foot long engines, LS is really not an option for most space strapped people.
Another factor is that there is still a very strong following of small narrow gauge feldbahn and tramway railroad modelling on the continent and in Britain, this means there is still a strong demand for the small 2 axle stuff that’s fallen out of favor here, look at whats been the big sellers here, they are all BIG, big steamers, big dismals, big cars, and looooong passenger cars, by contrast the smaller stuff from LGB, Piko and HLW barely clicks on the radar anymore.
I wish there was some way to shake people out of this funk, but even at shows I see people looking at my layout, but still being enamored with and wanting the big stuff like the yard long K and a rake of yard long Accu coaches. Its a completely different mindset.
the most inspiring GRR of all time (for me) was the Daisy Beach in 7/8ths…WOW, that little piece of RR-eality continues to make me smile!..I love the ‘little locos’ and such…and here I am tying off a new 13 x 34 layout… facepalm
Ah the Daisy Beach RR. That had to be one of my all time faverite layouts. Everything was scratch built and simple but tons of charm. For those that bnever saw it http://home.cogeco.ca/~daisybeach/ This RR is what really got my gears going for my layout.
I think there is some truth but I think he skipped a generation. In my experience with a lot of groups I have belonged to. It is the Boomers kids who are not the joiners. I read a great article on the tendencies of generations and I tried to find it link it but I couldn’t.
But the whole point of the article is that it isnt the latest generation that is the problem. It is the Hippy generation (I’m not sure that is what you call them.) A large majority of that generation did not want to join what their parents did. So we have this gap.
However, my generation (I think its called generation X, I’m 37) are those that will join things, but they dont know about these organizations unless grandparents was a member, because parents certainly weren’t.
Its interesting and no one has a good solution.
Pete –
Thanks for a response to my conclusion that the pre-30+ population is a “stimulate me” population seeking experiences that come at them, stimulating them from them being a ready receptor – NOT a initiator of their own experience, e.g. the essential in our hobby.
As a 45 year teaching college prof. with a 26,000 population student body, our Speech Department has surveyed students as to what they like to DO. Very rare are achievement hobbies listed – e.g. musical instruments, painting, drawing, photography (not self -photos), family scrap books (remember the craze 10 years ago), pottery (ceramic classes 15 years ago over-flowed), anything self-creative.
Instead, they list very little self-initiated activity. In class, I list interests that require self-stimulation and ask what do their friends like – go to clubs, dance, party, concerts, Facebook, twitter,
Where can we go, what can we do, what can we see, what can we hear is what stimulates this age group. Who gives the most stimulation for the most buck spent.
REMEDY: Show, demonstrate, that self-initiated interests do produce big positive feelings along with personal growth from the skills learned. Our hobby is one of those sources. Any articles in Garden RR demonstrating – even an editorial – on how successful demonstration led to personal interest in our hobby?
So will the 30+ year old parents translate the “self-initiation” message by example to their own children? Instead, will the I-pod remain the mainstay source for stimulation – plus the video games and other stimulation sources. …or…??
In the latest issue of the Swiss Review (Swiss ex-pats mag) was an article about stamp collecting. The gist: collections are practically worthless. Collectors’ clubs: a bunch of old farts.
Some of the collectors sell their “whole works” (all valid postage) to dealers who sell the stamps to people who, for various reasons, still send “snail mail”.
But to be honest, if I would have time to worry about the decline of this or any other hobby, perhaps I would worry. Nope, life is too short, no time for that!
HJ and all:
Try “selling” the idea to college students there is a “intrinsic” value to learning apart from the “extrinsic” value of collecting grades for resale to enter graduate school. Hobbies are intrinsic valued.
No sale.
Hobbies are for intrinsic value – who cares if the worth of the hobby is outside of the person who experiences it. Who cares about monetary worth? Those who have little sense of intrinsic value in learning.
The public schools train kids to accomplish for extrinsic reasons. There is a reason why THE most frequent question asked in school, by students, teachers, and parents alike, is: “WHAT DID YOU GET?”
instead of “What did you learn?” We encourage trading the value of learning for grades.
Interesting discussion. In my life, my cousin was one of those kids who always had a game boy, or whatever, in his hands. He was a video game freak. He and my other cousin’s husband would sit and talk about video games at family gatherings. I figured the kid was lost. This past weekend my aunt, his mother, told me that he was out in the garage rebuilding a pick up truck. Ok, he gets all of his “how to” answers off the internet. But this button pushing fiend is now turning wrenches and learning how to actually do something. My point is, maybe some of those “entertain me” kids will grow up and figure out how temporary that kind of stimulation is. If they do, they may seek a hobby where there is something a bit more permanent.
I am an optimist most of the time. I cant see writing off a whole group of folks, some of them will surprise you.
Model trains as a hobby is nowhere close to dying.
Membership in the NMRA on the other hand may very well be dying.
If you want to “play” with trains go ahead and do it. Do you have to join a club and pay membership fees to do this? Nope.
As David said above:
“I am an optimist most of the time. I cant see writing off a whole group of folks, some of them will surprise you.”
I agree. Identifying a problem is not a prescription for refusing a solution.
For me, the solution is to promote the advantages of self-initiation
REMEDY: Show, demonstrate, that self-initiated interests do produce big positive feelings along with personal growth from the skills learned. Our hobby is one of those sources. Any articles in Garden RR demonstrating – even an editorial – on successful demonstration of personal interest in our hobby would be a start.
Take a page from the weight control and exercise industry with personal testimony and plenty of before and after visuals.
Jake Smith said:
I think there is some truth but I think he skipped a generation. In my experience with a lot of groups I have belonged to. It is the Boomers kids who are not the joiners. I read a great article on the tendencies of generations and I tried to find it link it but I couldn’t.
But the whole point of the article is that it isnt the latest generation that is the problem. It is the Hippy generation (I’m not sure that is what you call them.) A large majority of that generation did not want to join what their parents did. So we have this gap.
However, my generation (I think its called generation X, I’m 37) are those that will join things, but they dont know about these organizations unless grandparents was a member, because parents certainly weren’t.
Its interesting and no one has a good solution.
Jake Im part of your generation. I have read that article. There are a few articles about each generation. It is interesting to read and really make sense. Our generation X is the generation that trusts no one. Its so true.
I’m a Ham Radio Operator too…we see the same thing from the outside-except there has been an influx in Licensees over the last few years. What some decry as a dying hobby has more folks involved than ever before.
Much like Ham Radio, LS Trains offers a learning curve that some are afraid to take on. Plus an investment regarding time and money; both seem to be on the short end of supply these days.
IF I hadn’t gotten ‘in’ when I did (good economy, cash to spare, easy credit) I’d not be here today. Fortunately I’m riding the wave generated back in 2004/5 utilizing what I bought (and subsequently stored when I had to move) then and really only have to invest the labor to get running again.
Further on Vic’s point…the smaller GRR’s could be a way to save/reignite the LS Train hobby in the US. If the newcomer was exposed to smaller gigs like the Daisy Beach and others, understanding that it doesn’t take 1200’ of track to make a fine GRR, they might ‘bite’.
One factor that might have influenced some folks to avoid our hobby and take up a more ‘enjoyable in their view’ hobby is the frequent moaning and groaning on most model railroad fora. These posts certianly do not convey a great hobby that is supposed to be an enjoyable.
Anyone wanting to take up an enjoyable pastime could well be put of by all the comments about things that do not work properly out of the box, is prone to breakage, need lots of work before running and the host of other tribulations that are regularly aired on fora.
Thank heavens I did not read fora before I built my railroad: I would likely have not even started it!
Yes, there are issues, mainly where locomotives are concerned, but truthfully of eight locomotives I have bought only one needed a loose wire resoldering. No big deal really. I was ablt to do it, but a good model shop would probably have done it if necessary.
I wonder if we have all become far too sensitive and expect everything in life to be 100% perfect?
Lots of us here have had most of our life - we need to just get on and enjoy what is left.
Alan Lott said:
One factor that might have influenced some folks to avoid our hobby and take up a more ‘enjoyable in their view’ hobby is the frequent moaning and groaning on most model railroad fora. These posts certianly do not convey a great hobby that is supposed to be an enjoyable.
Anyone wanting to take up an enjoyable pastime could well be put of by all the comments about things that do not work properly out of the box, is prone to breakage, need lots of work before running and the host of other tribulations that are regularly aired on fora.
Thank heavens I did not read fora before I built my railroad: I would likely have not even started it!
Yes, there are issues, mainly where locomotives are concerned, but truthfully of eight locomotives I have bought only one needed a loose wire resoldering. No big deal really. I was ablt to do it, but a good model shop would probably have done it if necessary.
I wonder if we have all become far too sensitive and expect everything in life to be 100% perfect?
Lots of us here have had most of our life - we need to just get on and enjoy what is left.
Alan,
I believe that facts are facts, and the newcomer is better served knowing these facts BEFORE jumping in. They would be really discouraged if it is found out AFTER they purchased their trains that these problems exist.
This thread makes an interesting read.
Maybe the people that are really affected are the people that are making\selling products or memberships etc.
A lot of interesting quotes from the thread, sorry if I missed some…
Vic - I see alot and I mean ALOT of kids who love trains at the shows I display at
Bob - not just “Hey, look at my neat trains”
Steve - put the throttle in the kids hands. I’ve done that
Kevin - Our behavior towards newcomers is quite often the biggest influence
Tom - We’re setting up the modules for an event in Claremore tonight
Doug - "…No. I see that generation’s eyes light up with Thomas and Brio and Lego
Hans - For a taste of Supertrain action
Dick - We have a modular layout which we take to shows
Bart - I think about age 3 is a good time to start.,…
Hans - if I would have time to worry about the decline of this or any other hobby, perhaps I would worry. Nope, life is too short, no time for that!
Matt - If you want to “play” with trains go ahead and do it.
Actually if I had the time, I would have mined the rest of the site for a bunch more quotes and examples.
From the pizza layout to the complete train show to the backyard garden -
I see you folks out doing what you enjoy and sharing it with others.
As my wife keeps reminding me “its just a hobby”.
So maybe unless it is your business or livelyhood,
the cup half full or half in reality may be a non-issue.
For what its worth
since 2004, my wife and I have done 1 or 2 public displays a year.
have seen lots of kids (big and little)
have worked with both train & non-train people for set up. once even a group of school kids…
had writeups in club newsletters, local papers and a short clip on the local tv channel.
like has been mentioned, at showtime the trains just need to run - Too many interesting
people to meet. as to the future, too many ideas - too little time.
I’m going to side with Alan on this one.
Consider the comic “For Better Or Worse” that someone (I can’t go back and look now) posted under the topic “A Little Train Humor”. If a newcomer to the hobby read that, it would be like my cat hearing “blah, blah, blah”. That person is only going to pick up on words they recognize like broken, solder, not, poorly, again, disappointed, out of-, poor communication, quality, or fix, etc. Pretty discouraging, no?
About the topic of club members talking to each other instead of attendees - I have “worked the table” for many different groups giving out some sort of information. A very common problem is the group members end up talking to each other in front of the table, blocking the way so people can’t see what you’re about. Same with the clubs, you end up talking to each other instead of looking outward. I was always the person sitting at the table saying “If you need to talk, step away from the front so we can talk to the people.” This usually this broke it up.
If there is public attendance at an event, we are there for the public, not each other. A very common problem, but one we need to be aware of.
There is an annual Holiday Train Show here to raise money to move the only remaining station from the Raritan River Rail Road. I am the only one there with Large Scale. So I have to balance time with running the layout, answering historical questions, and making sure the parents can get pictures of their excited children looking at the trains. I will put an oval on the ground, and the kids love it. They will sit right on the floor and watch. I put the colorful Toonerville Trolley up on the table with an auto reverser. The parents who have children they are carrying can hold them up to see. I love watching the eyes on the little ones! No one has asked “How do I start doing this?” but I hope I have planted some seeds with the info I gave.
I will get more questions at the table representing the Raritan River Rail Road Historical Society. I put up the bright red NW-2s and it attracts people with both historical questions, and the most common question “What size is that?”. I usually respond with “G Gauge, or Garden Railroad”.
Well, this turned out to be quite a long rant. I will summarize with “If the public is there, we are there for them”. 'nuff said
Good points Lou. I fully support the idea of trying to talk to “other” people instead of the same guys you see at the meetings every month.
I really try to think back to what got me into Model Railroading. I even asked my mom what triggered them to buy me a TYCO trainset for Christmas when I was 5 years old. To be honest she said I was always interested in trains, from when I was a toddler till now. So that wasnt much help…but I guess you could say I was born with it.
I like the discussion here and I can only say, enjoy our hobby but always be mindful of those around you and sometimes, give them the throttle and see what happens.
A good discussion indeed Jake. Many viewpoints: all valid.
There is really only one sure way to get folks interested and that is 'tell ‘em all about it’. They say if you throw enough mud at a wall some will always stick.
The initial post was about a letter from the NMRA. Has anyone joined it as a result of this debate?
As I write this the Denver Garden Railway Society membership is at 190 with a big range of ages and interests. Our public outreach consists of two groups.
We have an exhibits group that assembles a large multi-loop railway at GTE and TCA shows plus the Home and Garden show and whatever else we can find. A huge variety of large scale trains are run so the public gets a good feel for what is available. There are many members who prowl the edges of the exhibit talking with the public and offering advise to those with questions. There is a looping video of our last convention tour railroads to give them a taste the types of railways that can be built.
The other public display is our large garden railway on the grounds of the Colorado Railroad Museum that is open year round. Again the variety of trains is apparent plus the ability to show people that large scale trains run very well outdoors and that the garden aspect is very enjoyable. We also have an elevated live steam track that gets good usage. Visitors ask lots questions and can get good information about the trains and garden from our members.
Now about the costs of the trains. The DGRS has two swap meets per year, one in February and the other in June. These are well attended by our members and there are always some very good bargains to be found. Plus we receive several donations of large scale equipment each year that are given to the museum that we include in the swap meets. Many of our members started their railways with equipment purchased at these events for bargain prices.
While the DGRS membership is still tilted toward the gray hair types we do have a growing number of of those under 40, and a good number way under 40. Our numbers have held steady for several decades with no decline yet. So far so good!
Alan Olson
DGRS/CRRM Garden Railway Chairman