Large Scale Central

LARGE SCALE organization

Fred,

Anytime someone is checking if what is advertised and proclaimed actually coincides with fact then we have “a cruel swipe”, “bashing” and a variety of other terms applied to such temerity.

How well I remember carefully measuring an Aristo Wide turnout and listing the measurements in a nice drawing. “How dare you!?!?!” was one of the milder comments.
Of course I only bought, measured, reported after reading all kinds of complaints about the quality.
But hey, it would seem that one can bitch and complain, just as long as one doesn’t state the exact “why”, because if one does that, one hurts the hobby! :wink: :slight_smile: :wink:

Anytime you tabulate it nicely for all to see, there will be cries of “FOUL”.

I guess I can add my opinion to this whole can of worms, and I must emphasize, this is strictly my opinion based on my observations attending Garden Railway conventions. The majority of people in this LS hobby seem more interested in having something animated running through their gardens. And as long as it runs well, takes minimal maintenance, and looks good they’re pretty satisfied. While some of them have graduated from the smaller scales, even those don’t seem to be very interested in “standards”. They are doing it strictly for the fun of it. Granted there are those who do take it seriously and have gone to great lengths to make their railroads as prototypical as possible, but they are few and far between. From my viewpoint the majority are in it for sake of relaxing in the outdoors, satisfying their creative urges and just having something unusual running through their garden. Those of us who are looking for some kind of standard are a small minority and our cries are drowned out by the “run for fun” crowd. From what I’ve seen most of this “Vocal Minority” doesn’t have much effect of some of the LS manufacturers.

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
I also found that just because it says in a certain catalogue it is supposed to be 1:22.5 doesn't mean diddly-squat; some of it is glaringly wrong , other stuff is "pretty close" and some stuff is "spot on".
I wouldn't mind so much if models aren't exact in all dimensions, as long as the manufacturer would clearly state what scale they are aiming for.

Standards are not there just so people can count rivits. Nor do all of them exist to insure that every model is to scale. But they exist, or should exist to insure that the product functions properly and is compatable with other products in the LS family. It’s just plain inexcusable that manufacturers cannot even make their couplers at the same height. It’s inexcusable that manufacturers cannot make couplers that will couple with each other. It’s inexcusable that manufacturers cannot make turnouts that are compatible with a majority of the wheels in the industry. It’s inexcusable that manufacturers will not design wheels that will go through turnouts that do meet a reasonable standard. It’s inexcusable when manufacturers decide to make equipment in a proprietary scale that just does not fit with anything else being made. It’s inexcusable to have 2 identical locomotives from the same manufacturer and one will run with another manufacturer’s power supply and the other won’t. It’s inexcusable that manufacturers cannot settle on whether or not locomotives will run on Pulse Width power or not. It’s inexcusable when a manufacturer puts in an opening for a speaker and installs a speaker, yet it takes custom cabinetry to make the thing sound right. It’s inexcusable when a manufacturer says something is plug and play and it’s plug and disaster.

Proprietary concepts were a disaster in the computer industry 15 years ago and it’s a disaster in the model railroad industry too. People want choices and the only way they can have choices is if all manufacturer’s equipment is compatable with each other.

End of rant…for now.

Yo Warren - I can and do run my Gauge 1 stuff on ANY Gauge 1 track anywhere in UK, Germany, Switzerland, France, The Netherlands, Denmark, Canada and even Japan.

All of my G1 rolling and locomotives couple up with everybody else’s G1 rolling stock and locomotives, and run on everybody elses G1 track without falling off the track or smacking expensively into switches. I have British freight cars made in Canada and German locomotives made in Japan. ALL work together.

Every time.

Sadly, Aristocraft and USA Trains are not made to G1 standards, as we know. Even MTH, who generally follow G1/1/32nd scale dimensions, do not make their couplings to suit the accepted international G1 standards. They are all American companies. The recently-arrived AMS/Accucraft 1/32 scale box-cars are an unknown quantity here in Europe - nobody I know has seen one yet, so I cannot comment on their corrdectness or otherwise ,

ASTER, a Japanese company who make predominantly G1 in 1/32nd scale, do make couplings to the G1 standards laid down in the widely-accepted G1MRA ‘policy’.

So do Huebner, Bockholt, Wilag, Spring, Wyko - in fact, every major manufacture [all German, please note] except Marklin, who stick to their own very effective ‘claw’ couplings. This because most recognise that folks will buy other makes of G1 and try to run them together.

But here is the clincher.

With the exceptions of Marklin and their tinplate G1 trains - the Maxi-train system - and ASTER - who occupy a very rarified part of the market - none of the German companies make a single item of US equipment. It is ALL continental European. Here in UK, G1 having a rather more British than most following means that British practices of the three-link hook coupling prevail everywhere G1 is seen.

Aristo, USAT and MTH are American-based, and it is a well established fact that the US likes to go its own way with things. You invented the ‘wow-factor’ 1/29th stuff…not the rest of the world, for whom 1/32 scale US stuff seemed quite big enough, thank you.

Please note that I have so far omitted to mention any other scale other than G1. Again, Bachmann, Accucraft/AMS, Hartland - all in larger-than-G1 scales - remain totally incompatible for a number of reasons. Of them, Accucraft appears to be the only one to have have adopted scale couplings for their F-scale/1/20.3 models. Strangely enough, their G1 models like the GS4 and the S-12 switcher - as well as the long-awaited CP Royal Hudson - also have true G1-dimensioned and standardised knuckle couplers for those who use them. As I noted earlier - maybe their 1/32nd scale boxcars have correct couplings and wheel standards compatible with G1, but i do not yet know this to be a fact.

LGB’s hook and loop couplings are designed to be used by children, and cannot be considered as in any kind of scale.

There already ARE a full set of standards for G1 - track, wheels and couplings and so on.

Sooooooooo…

There need to be similar sets of standards for true-scale 1/24th scale models, such as they are these days…

and for true-scale IIM/or 2m as H-J calls it - in 1/22.5 scale - note that here in UK that standards for standard gauge models in 1/22.6 scale - known as G3 [which runs on 64mm gauge or 2.5" gauge track], have existed since the mid-1920’s.

and for true-scale 1.20.3 scale models - this time in both narrow AND standard gauges.

and for true scale 1/19th/16mm models.

and for true-scale 7/8th models.

All will therefore end up totally incompatible with each other.

A bit like now, really.

tac
Ottawa Valley GRS

Terry A de C Foley said:
...................................

and for true-scale IIM/or 2m as H-J calls it - in 1/22.5 scale - note that here in UK that standards for standard gauge models in 1/22.6 scale - known as G3 [which runs on 64mm gauge or 2.5" gauge track], have existed since the mid-1920’s.

tac
Ottawa Valley GRS


Terry,

There are nice NEM-MOROP standards for II (2) and even an “improved” set with yet tighter tolerances from IG Spur II. The tolerances on the NEM Standards are very clearly defined, for all I know :wink: they could pass the ISO test. For instance the track gauge is 45.00 mm +0.3mm

Decker Doggett tried to start a Big Railers Club. It was a couple of years prior to the ISLSMR formation. His Logo design had the end section of a rail also. And it was a club for trains that ran on 45mm track, also. It was a noble effort on his part just prior to his death.

The same problems blunted his efforts that have befallen those other efforts that followed. No single “umbrella” club seems to fit the diverse interests in Large Scale.

The only possible solution would be to have “chapters” within a single “umbrella” club that would fit the various segments like:

  1. Steam
  2. R/C & Battery
  3. Analog
  4. DCC
  5. Operators
  6. Roundy Rounders
  7. Collectors
  8. Scratch Builders
  9. and any other that I missed & apologize for not listing

Now I must mention that the meddling, offering suggestions/recommendations from one chapter to another may not be taken with the same spirit as it is offered…and usually is not.

The first problem (besides size, gauges, scales, etc.) is a common coupler that all producers of Large Scale adopt, so all trains will connect and run together. If you, the hobbyists, can solve this one problem then the rest may just fall into place.

I have nothing else to say on the subject…Good Luck with your efforts.

As far as standards for couplers are concerned; we seem to be missing one simple point.
Everyone doesn’t have to use the same coupler, but it would be nice to have some sort of standard for rolling stock, that would allow a person to apply their choice of couplers on any piece of rolling stock.
In other words, a standard mounting pad on which any coupler could be mounted.
This is done in a lot of cases in the smaller scales, and USTrains has made a feeble attempt at doing it in LS.

Fred Mills said:
As far as standards for couplers are concerned; we seem to be missing one simple point. Everyone doesn't have to use the same coupler, but it would be nice to have some sort of standard for rolling stock, that would allow a person to apply their choice of couplers on any piece of rolling stock. In other words, a standard mounting pad on which any coupler could be mounted. This is done in a lot of cases in the smaller scales, and USTrains has made a feeble attempt at doing it in LS.
Fr. Fred

Now that I can agree to…but what I originally meant was: when the loco or car comes out of the box they would fit together regardless of the size, scale, or gauge…they did this with H.O. Scale many years ago…then the newbies would have less problems in the beginning…and later they could migrate to the style/manufacturer coupler that pleases them the best.

Fred Mills said:
As far as standards for couplers are concerned; we seem to be missing one simple point. Everyone doesn't have to use the same coupler, but it would be nice to have some sort of standard for rolling stock, that would allow a person to apply their choice of couplers on any piece of rolling stock. In other words, a standard mounting pad on which any coupler could be mounted. This is done in a lot of cases in the smaller scales, and USTrains has made a feeble attempt at doing it in LS.
Fred,

In the NEM Standards they go one step farther. They provide for a standardized mounting http://www.miba.de/morop/nem362-d.pdf
Believe it or not you can even get Kadees that plug into that mounting. http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page57.htm
Kadee 17, 18, 19, 20; four types that take care of the gazillion possibilities on the different cars … errrr no, there are only four possibilities.

In the “good old days” (1976) when I converted all my Euro HO stuff to Kadees it was strictly trial and error with a lot of fitting involved. Tight, tight, tight.

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Terry A de C Foley said:
...................................

and for true-scale IIM/or 2m as H-J calls it - in 1/22.5 scale - note that here in UK that standards for standard gauge models in 1/22.6 scale - known as G3 [which runs on 64mm gauge or 2.5" gauge track], have existed since the mid-1920’s.

tac
Ottawa Valley GRS


Terry,

There are nice NEM-MOROP standards for II (2) and even an “improved” set with yet tighter tolerances from IG Spur II. The tolerances on the NEM Standards are very clearly defined, for all I know :wink: they could pass the ISO test. For instance the track gauge is 45.00 mm +0.3mm


H-J - you have [inadvertently I’m sure] totally supported my point.

NEM is a European organisation, and clearly states so. The G1MRA standards were also applied to that scale and gauge when it was the only ‘one in town’ - and is clearly British-dominated - only to be expected when by far the majority of operators in G1 in the association actually ARE British or ex-pats like Alan wright and David Morgan-Kirby.

Now that we have a plethora of scales all operating on the same 45mm track we have real problems in co-ordinating them.

We have made the rod for our own backs here.

Look at the number of scales that operate on H0 gauge track that are STILL to H0 scale to reinforce my point…H0e, H0m and so on…Bemo still use Bemo couplings…not NEM.

Still, I feel that this thread is going nowhere at all, and that we are now engaged in tail-chasing. The extreme and clearly obvious difference in physical size between G1 and 1/20.3 knuckle couplers will ensure that those who run these scales together in mixed trains - for whatever reason - will always have problems doing so.

Personally, I keep my trains to the same scale. Not hard when you only have a single loop of track… I wouldn’t dream of running a G1 Rheingold passenger car with a D&RGS stock car with built-in auto-moo. Some might.

tac
Ottawa Valley GRS

Terry,

Nothing inadvertent when it comes to Standards. :wink:

Let’s stick to track gauge for a moment - one of the items where clear Standards would be a “thing of beauty”. Have a look at the G1MRA, NMRA and the NEM Standards as they apply to 45mm track.

It’s probably just because in my previous life I couldn’t get away from standards, that some of that has me shaking my head.

Next take any of the 45mm track and turnouts; start checking how it conforms to the standards.

PS Couplers are more or less in the same category.

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Next take any of the 45mm track and turnouts; start checking how it conforms to the standards.
The following track manufacturers make their products to either NEM or G1MRA standards -

In UK - Markway and Clifford Barker

In Germany - Thiele.

Being a simple soul, and well-known cheapskate of legendary cheapskateshiphoodness, I run ALL the following makes on Tenmille G45 track - code 335

Aster G1
Regner G1
MTH G1
Aristocraft and USAT 1/29th
Bachmann 1/24th
LGB 1.22.5-ish
Bachmann 1/20.3
Accucraft 1/20.3
Accucraft 1/19th/16mm
Regner 1/19th/16mm-ish

I have absolutely no trouble whatsoever running any of them…but not together…

tac
Ottawa Valley GRS