Large Scale Central

LARGE SCALE organization

General Discussion
#1

Is there a need for a non profit, LS model railroad organization, to represent the needs of LS enthusiasts, in North America ?

The idea would be to represent those that are beyond the “Roundy-Roundy” stage; and would like some sort of standards represented in manufactured products.
It would represent those that still want to have fun, but would like more than a toy train running around in the garden. People that are tired of the poorly designed switches, and lack of some sort of standards in the industry. The whole thing would avoid politics (If that is possible !) and stick to trying to improve the whole idea of Large Scale beyond the conception some have of it being just toy trains out in the garden, running continuously in circles.

OK- OK…don’t get your Knickers in a knot…for those that enjoy it;
THERE IS NOTHING AT ALL WRONG WITH DOING WHAT IN HECK YOU WANT…
…I’m just asking if there is a need to get some sort of organization together, to try to improve the quality, and set some realistic standards for what is known as LARGE SCALE. Some say that the NMRA is not serving the needs, at this point.

Could we get together and work WITH the NMRA to address our needs, in a way that “Anti-NMRA” people would appreciate ? (In other words, not duplicate what already exists, and get rid of politics)

Just some questions and thoughts…not meant to start a war.

#2

That was at least part of the concept we had when the ISLSMR http://islsmr.homestead.com/index.html was formed. Unfortunately not enough interest and volunteers were ever forth coming enough to go any where with it. I still have my membership card if you think you can breath new life into it !

#3

I guess that answers my question very well…thanks, Gary.

#4

…and yes; I did buy a membership in that organization…

#5

Me to guys. It was and is what is needed, but most people have little interest. So what we have is a strong friendship of people with similar ideas.

That’s probably good enough, too much organization can always ruin the enjoyment. Look what government has done to good corrupt politics. Its turned it into just nothing but a bureacracy .

#6

If it’s any consolation, a similar group was organized in Germany to cover the European scene.

The result is more or less the same: no real action!

My three pet peeves to be tackled by such an organiztion on either side of the pond:

  1. have all mfgs clearly state what scale any given item is.

  2. have clearly defined Standards for 45mm track and wheels to which the mfgs conform.

  3. have clearly defined Standards for the track powered crowd regarding max. voltage to apply to DC or DCC.

Three very simple items, any movement on that front?

Someone made a statement not long ago that not all mfgs participate in the LS hobby org.
Wellllllllllll perhaps that LS hobby org - apart from looking for all that extra market - should get the collective brains around the above three simple concepts.

As always strictly my opinion.

#7

Those three suggestions would be the best thing to happen in the hobby since it’s start…everyone could win, even the consumer…egads, could that be right…!!!

#8

Fred, you cannot have the consumer really winning. That would mean too much commitment to common sense behaviour when it suits the majors to keep the wool pulled over the eyes of their customers with Spin and BS.

Any organisation for LS would do well to remain at best a national organisation and not get too grandiose by stating it is International. I expressed that opinion when the ISLSMR was formed.
Walk first, then run when you have proven you can walk.
When local credibility has been established then, and only then, make contact with other national like minded organisations. Do not assume you will be setting the International standards. That will take co-operation and much discussion with other foreign interests.

#9

There’s an organization in Europe/England called G1 I think. They set standards. How do their standards compare to what we do in the US? Are they just another political organization like NMRA?

The only way this will work is to have a staff on a payroll that gets their income from membership dues that does all the leg work. We have seen how volunteer work goes…:confused:

#10

Hans-Joerg,

Item # 2 – Wheel & track spects can be found in the NMRA standards…

Item # 3 – The voltages for track power can be found in the NMRA standards, but you have to look real hard… Also they call out a right hand rule for locomotives & power to the track…

IMHO the only company that does any thing close is Bachmann with there track switch…
There are some off-shore companys that follow the # 1 gauge rules…
Those of us that would like the companys to follow the standards have not figured out how to hold there feet to the fire yet…

#11

Actually (and I know as I was involved) the nmra LS track standards ARE G1MRA.
Sunset Valley, Llagas Creek, ASTER, Bachmann, Sierra Valley Wheels all are G1MRA.

Been using SOME of that stuff for years.

#12

Bob Burton said:
Hans-Joerg, Item # 2 – Wheel & track spects can be found in the NMRA standards… Item # 3 – The voltages for track power can be found in the NMRA standards, but you have to look real hard… Also they call out a right hand rule for locomotives & power to the track… IMHO the only company that does any thing close is Bachmann with there track switch… There are some off-shore companys that follow the # 1 gauge rules… Those of us that would like the companys to follow the standards have not figured out how to hold there feet to the fire yet…

Bob, There is an org in Europe called NEM-MOROP that has had detailed, comprehensive #1, #2 and 2m Standards for some time - unlike the NMRA - but few mfgs actually state that their goodies follow the standards. I compared the G1MRA, NMRA and the NEM standards to each other ( along time ago!). Something basic like the 45mm track gauge is listed as G1MRA: 44.45mm for Standard and 45.00mm for Fine NMRA: 44.85mm for #1; 45.00 for Proto Fn3; 45.00mm for G NEM: 45.00 mm And don’t get me started on the tolerances: None for G1MRA and +/- for NMRA. Helloooooooooo standards people!!! If it is an inside measurement, such as track gauge, then the dimension goes from the nominal to the + side (NEM-Morop +0.3mm), if it is an outside measurement i.e. wheelsets then the dimension goes from the nominal to the - (minus) side. I may sound like a broken record, but we learned that in 1st year of apprenticeship! Basic knowledge to fit pins into holes. Of course as an inspector in a toolroom in CH I also had the pleasure of getting “close up” with other tolerances. The one time ITT Europe headoffice in Brussels decided that the Spaniards should be able to produce a progressive die for relais contacts just as well as the Swiss. Nah … we never figured out how they arrived at the tolerances, but instead of a progressive cutting die, we had something that could have doubled as a shallow deep drawing die. Was good for the two guys in charge of design and toolroom, two week trip to CH to get some pointers.

It’s not that the Swiss are smarter, it’s just that we’re used to very close tolerances. :wink: :slight_smile: :wink:

#13

Well from reading all this I can tell there ARE some organizing groups, but if the major manufacturers ignore the NMRA and everyone else, NOTHING is going to change.

The only way I can see change occuring is thru the power of the pocket book. Namely not buying stuff with lousy standards, just like how when we rush out and buy all that first run stuff without being sadly dissappointed by a mess of manufacturing errors…oh…er, wait, sorry, that was only in my dreams…

I’ll use my own standards. poor as they are…

#14
Victor Smith said:
Well from reading all this I can tell there ARE some organizing groups, but if the major manufacturers ignore the NMRA and everyone else, NOTHING is going to change.

The only way I can see change occuring is thru the power of the pocket book. Namely not buying stuff with lousy standards, just like how when we rush out and buy all that first run stuff without being sadly dissappointed by a mess of manufacturing errors…oh…er, wait, sorry, that was only in my dreams…

I’ll use my own standards. poor as they are…


Sheesh Vic, you gotta read a better book before you fall asleep. Too much GR could be responsible for your bad dreams. :lol: :wink: :lol:

I looked at what was out there and then went with the NEM standards.

#15

Seems to me, it wouldn’t matter what organization was formed, or what standards they came up with. There’s no way to make the manufacturers to conform to standards, and they have no real incentive to conform voluntarily.

Maybe the LS hobby is still too young. The consumers haven’t even settled on a scale yet!

#16

Ray,

There has been Gauge 1/Spur1(1:32) for a considerable length of time, there has also been a Spur 2m (1:22.5) for a considerable length of time. Both use 45mm track gauge and in both cases that works out to being the correct gauge. There are a few more scales such as 1:19 and 1:20.3 which also calculate to correct gauge for what is being represented. Even the 1:24 is correct for 42" gauge.

But 1:27 and 1:29 as represnting SG on 45mm track … well it is “G wie Gummi”, but some people just aren’t all that good at math or just don’t care.

Fine by me, it’s their railroad. OTOH they must be doing a lot of scratchbuilding, haven’t seen much in the 1:27 and 1:29 accessories department. Yep, it could be that I look in all the wrong places. :wink: :slight_smile: That is a specialty of mine. :lol: :wink:

#17

Organization, we don’t need any stinking organization. Heck, about half the folks in our little club aren’t interested in any organization. They just want to “run trains and have fun”. Even though I am the president of the club this year, I kind of feel the same way.
Paul

#18

As far as I can tell the LS community has been looking for standards to be set and followed since long before I joined the hobby.

G1MRA has made an attempt, but as Hans points out, their standards are lacking in detail. I’ve also found their website to be less than helpful - spec drawings are too fuzzy to read.

NMRA has made a valiant attempt, in my opinion, but their insistence on track polarity agreeing with the smaller scales is just plain crazy. Do you know anyone who runs a Bachman loco with the switch set to NMRA polarity? One important thing about setting standards and getting the manufacturers to go along is to find common ground where defacto standards already exist and adopt them. Polarity is one place NMRA fell down on this. I’m not certain, but track gauge could be another. Oh, and their multiple classifications of scale having different track standards is not realistic. Railroads like Fred’s I.P.P&W. run different scales on the same track. Fred doesn’t run the different scales together, but many do. So in my case of adopting Ric’s scale (1:23.95 ?) what track standards would I use ???

Until some group has the support of both the manufacturers AND the consumers, no standards will be adopted.

NMRA is our best hope if they ever come to realize that Large Scale is unique.

JR

#19

Manufacturers have had every opportunity to get on board with standards, pretty much from the time when Kalamazoo introduced the first viable alternative to LGB. They’ve proven time and time again to be almost morally opposed to the idea.

Let’s face it, though… Each individual manufacturer’s standards seem to be more “guideline” than “code,” anyway. Even with a universal standard, what faith do we have that such standards would actually improve anything? Just because they’re aiming at a different point on the dartboard doesn’t mean their aim would improve any. The “bulls-eye” is there; already established by G1MRA, NMRA, etc. At least they’re all aiming at the same dartboard. The rest has been–and likely always will be–up to us.

Later,

K

#20
Paul Bottino said:
Organization, we don't need any stinking organization. Heck, about half the folks in our little club aren't interested in any organization. They just want to "run trains and have fun". Even though I am the president of the club this year, I kind of feel the same way. Paul
Hi Paul,

Yeah we know that, no stinking standards, no stinking organization, either!

And then one reads the different fora and sees people bitch about:

  • Track that doesn’t perform

  • Turnouts that are substandard

  • Couplers that are for the birds

  • Clearances that are anything but clear

  • Powersupplies and controllers that provide too high a voltage as in “Sh… I fried another one” or too low “Damn, those engines hardly move!”

  • Structures, figures, road vehicles that are “quite close” but no one is sure just how close.

The list could get as long as the LGB Saga, but it all doesn’t matter just as long as things look good. Which would mean “visual inspection is sufficient!”.

But, no we don’t need no stinking …

:wink: :slight_smile: :smiley:

I think it’s great, gives me that warm, fuzzy, nostalgic feeling I missed ever since the smaller scales pulled up their socks and got on the ball.