Kindly reread the previous post by Kevin Strong. He pretty much sums up the situation exactly the way it is. No one cares, because we buy the stuff anyway.
Paul
Paul Bottino said:Nope, I don't buy it anyway. I started making my own switches using Llagas Creek parts. I build my own rolling stock. I make my own figures. Build my own buildings. I did buy some AMS flex track - been pretty happy with that. OK with the Bachmann locomotives and Accucraft steam.
Kindly reread the previous post by Kevin Strong. He pretty much sums up the situation exactly the way it is. No one cares, because we buy the stuff anyway. Paul
Bruce, 
Yep, it’s the “It has to fit or we don’t buy it” movement.
Best part when building one’s own turnouts, you know which ass to kick when things don’t work. 
Bruce, you and several others here, there and elsewhere are the exceptions. Those who beat there own drums and make what you know is correct in all aspects. But in the mass market of the bleeting sheeps of consumeristic buying patterns, Paul and Kevin are more correct. People buy whats out there, and dont speak out much regarding the hodge podge of scale and standards. Mostly becuase they dont know much about scale or standards and simply dont know any better or simply dont care. I see it, the best chance will be as more of the small scalers get older and move up in scale to large scale, bringing their demand for more defined and higher standards with them. Then we might begin to see more consumer demand for scale and standards having a positive effect with the manufacterers responce.
I am an NMRA member for many years, my wife and I go to conventions in areas we want to visit. Yes, they have Largescale Layouts on the tours and have some clinics. I get the NMRA Scale Rails magazine which has many articles about what the NMRA is doing, Most other articles and advertisements are for other scales and not Largescale.
Two points of interest in the June 2007 issue could be of interest to us.
Both items are in the “Presidents Car” by Mike Breastel, President NMRA.
- A law suite filed in Florida Courts in August 2006 from a company named Real Rail Effects, Inc. against American Hobby Industries (QSI Industries, Inc.), and Atlas Model Railroad Company. This law suite alleged infringment on a patent owned by Real Rail Effects for a device described as a “sound recording device and reproduction system for model trains using intregrated digital command control”, Real Rail Effects has also sent letters to other DCC manufacturers saying they are also infringing on the Patent.
This might effect us in the Soundtraxs and Phoenix systems, plus DCC usage? NMRA is very serious about getting this patent revoked, many manufacturers are contributing money to assist the NMRA patent attroney in this effort. Sounds like another UP copyright issue.
- The NMRA has introduced a new Corporate Membership option for use by industry leaders who value their association with the NMRA and its members. The first Corporate Member to sign up is Bachmann Industries with several more to sign up soon as of this printing date of this issue.
Now it sounds like to me that the NMRA has the interest of the model railroader and industries in mind, they have many years of experience, time, structure, and people.
The NMRA does have issues and tunnel vision sometimes that needs to be addressed, the HO scale dominates NMRA and that was evident to me last year in Philadelphia at the convention board dinner my wife and I accidently walked into at a resturant and over heard some baised comments from the past President.
If we had the people interested and dedicated to work with the NMRA we could make Largescale standards workable using the NMRA organization. I believe they would welcome us. But, we would have to convince them that Largescale has different requirements in defining standards and what works in other scales like “N” and “HO” may not all work for us.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Victor Smith said:I think I fall into the category of "Not a target consumer" for most of the manufacturers. So...they really don't care about me. But, that's OK. I enjoy what I'm doing. I enjoy what others are doing. But...for the life of me...I can not understand this "we don't need no steekin' standards" philosophy expressed by many.
Bruce, you and several others here, there and elsewhere are the exceptions. Those who beat there own drums and make what you know is correct in all aspects. But in the mass market of the bleeting sheeps of consumeristic buying patterns, Paul and Kevin are more correct. People buy whats out there, and dont speak out much regarding the hodge podge of scale and standards. Mostly becuase they dont know much about scale or standards and simply dont know any better or simply dont care. I see it, the best chance will be as more of the small scalers get older and move up in scale to large scale, bringing their demand for more defined and higher standards with them. Then we might begin to see more consumer demand for scale and standards having a positive effect with the manufacterers responce.
Jon Radder said:
So in my case of adopting Ric's scale (1:23.95 ?) what track standards would I use ????JR
Jon,
Its 1:21.4 half way between 1:22.5 and 1:20.3. We need to be exact about this.
Warren Mumpower said:
There's an organization in Europe/England called G1 I think. They set standards. How do their standards compare to what we do in the US? Are they just another political organization like NMRA?The only way this will work is to have a staff on a payroll that gets their income from membership dues that does all the leg work. We have seen how volunteer work goes…
Warren - you have a very strange concept of the role of the G1MRA, that is celebrating 60 years of successful operation in June this year with a week-long steam and electric fest at the Fosse Way Centre in middle England… It has absolutely no political role to play in modle railway engineering whatsoever. It is, and has been the guiding light for G1 for the last 60 years in UK and latterly Europe. Most G1-ers in the USA and Canada are not scratch builders, like very many are in the G1MRA, but rely on the products of ASTER and occasionally Accucraft to produce the US/Canadian outline models they rightly want. You do not seem to have the large number of small business builders that we have in UK, for instance, who can build you any locomotive you want from any era, in steam or electric power, and in 1/32 or 10mm scale. You certainly have no equivalent to ASTER or even Accucraft. I am excepting the Charlie Mynhiers of this world, and their one-off G1 models built for their own satisfaction.
See - http://www.gaugeone.org
With over 2500 members in UK and Europe, it sets the standards adopted by the late Henry Greenley in the mid-1920’s and refined them into the mainly 1/32 [3/8" to the foot]scale models we see today made by ASTER, Huebner, Bockholt, Spring, WILAG and many commercial builders here in UK like Barrett Engineering, Mike Danby, Metalsmiths, Paul Forsyth, Fred Phipps, Keith Cousins, Wagon & Carriage Works, Ken Martin, Tenmille, Dave Walker, Peter Rogers, TMS Models, Clifford Barker, Northern FineScale in Canada, and many others too numerous to mention, and to whom I apologise for omitting. All of whom are not only members of the G1MRA, but are active in the promotion of the scale wherever they or their products appear.
The NMRA does not, as far as I know -
a. Set model steam boiler safety standards and provide certification.
b. Design and build project live steam locomotives.
c. Provide a four-times a year magazine newsletter of outstanding quality to its members.
d. Offer a VERY large range of member discounted manufactuers and suppliers to one gauge.
e. Have a major influence over manufacturing standards in the design and construction of 1/32 and 1/30 scale live steam and electric model railway equipment worldwide.
f. Have sponsored exhibitions on numerous occasions throughout the year in different parts of the UK and mainland Europe.
g. Rely 99% on volunteers to run the whole shebang. I may be wrong there as I have the distinct impression that it is wholly volunteer-run.
h. Have 28 well-established groups of operators on four continents with open running days for guests and members.
You get the idea…
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS & G1MRA #3641
PS - Ask David Morgan-Kirby up in stittsville ONT to spot you a spare copy of a G1MRA newsletter/magazine and you’ll see what I mean for sure.
Every year or so - standards and ISLSMR comes up…I will re-post something I did on LSOL about two years ago because it is still relevant - in my humble opinion…
"The discussion of standards has gone round and round since LSOL’s first run and went decidedly nowhere. And then the discussion reared it’s head several years ago and not on this forum…at that time several forums were heating up with the discussion and I plainly said – if you guys are serious – I will get a meeting space [for free], hotel rooms [for virtually nothing in cost] and we can have at the development of a group. 5 people showed up. I even had an online chat line set up and a computer viewer so everyone could partake in the discussion – virtually – one person logged on….
And in even setting up the group, there was dissension over the width of the track. Originally, our definition of what was Large Scale included the statement:
“The Society defines the definition of “Large Scale” as railroad locomotives and rolling stock which generally operates on 45mm track.â€
The “generally†was added not to exclude the large number of outdoor railroaders that run 32 mm track [mostly in England]. That addition of the word “generally†turned some people off…
Our purpose is also clearly defined:
“Section 3. The purposes of the Society are:
to promote Large Scale model railroading.
to provide education and information to its members and to the general public regarding Large Scale model railroading.
to work in conjunction with Hobby Dealers and Large Scale Model Railroad Manufacturers to promote the hobby to the public and provide a forum for consumer input.
to assist other organized Large Scale Model Railroad Clubs, Societies, etc. in promoting the Hobby.â€
No one proposed, from then on, that it was only about setting up a group to hammer out standards.
But from that meeting in Phoenix, and then forward, we hammered out a lot of work with respect bylaws, memberships, yes a logo crafted by someone who spent a lot of time on it, website, mission statement, chat room, forum site through Yahoo Groups, sponsored a photo contest for Gday2002 [Gday didn’t exist last year – if it had – we would have sponsored it], had members sign up for the World’s Greatest Hobby….in fact we got a lot farther than the discussions on the old LSOL site – and as I recall – all those discussion lead to one thing – a dead end because no one could agree on anything…
We had also booths for two years running at ECLSTS. Even offered up a $150.00 gift certificate contest - $1.00 a chance. We sold around $75.00 in chances for $150.00 gift certificate. On our table we had flyers from all the On-line sites [LSOL included] applications to the Worlds Greatest Hobby and free giveaway GR magazines.
The tips section of the website is updated and we are always looking any articles to post and host….
I will fall on my sword to say that I haven’t spent a lot of time pushing membership since last years ECLSTS. For reasons of work and family, I can’t devote the immense time and cost now as I did…[you think travel to ECLSTS is cheap from Arizona?].
So the challenge goes out – does anyone want to help? All the hard work is done. The infrastructure is there….many of the members are all busy doing their own thing which involves – promoting the hobby. Two monitor a Large Scale site. Many are involved with their local clubs. Ron has done a lot of work getting the Large Scale train shows to promote the hobby. Ric Golding put together a wonderful Timesaver track powered puzzle and brought it to ECLSTS last year…In short, many are a great job at promoting the hobby as they see fit. Where we go next, if anywhere, is up to the group and anyone else who wants to jump on board. I frankly don’t WANT people to join a group, just to get a name badge or a shirt….but many of the existing founding members have given $100.00’s of dollars to kick the group off and spent countless hours of time in discussion and work to put it together.
I was reminded one time by a strong advocate for standards that it would be fools folly to start an organization harping on standards – something akin to you better learn to fly before you can walk. I was also given a lesson in basic economics with respect to our efforts in providing Large scale information for free something akin to “why would you do that�
We have some great guys that spent some long hours doing a lot of behind the scenes work on this program. And I spent my personal time this weekend typing up letters and sending out name badges…
Funny – when someone asks “what is in if for me?†when they want to join – I honestly tell them “workâ€. Someone else told me that some people were “put off’ that they didn’t get asked to join…huh? Our whole website is an invitation.
At another juncture, a couple of manufacturers wanted to “assist†us in our startup – it was thought that it would not be prudent to ask for any assistance. How can you be unbiased then?
But when it comes down to standards – it wasn’t discussed and has been part of our discussion. Why? Because we are not a large group and because no one in our group thought it was the way to go then…probably still isn’t but I would LOVE to have discussions on the matter. And frankly, the “uphill†battle to suggest standards is just that….what we are is what the group decided to be. If someone wants to join and influence {and yes breath some life in the group} then have at it – the application is on our website:
I haven’t asked for yearly regular members fees reassessed as so many have already given so much. We have a rather small amount of money that has been sitting in the bank for a few more membership drives, if we move forward with other visits, mailouts, etc….
No amount of talking on these websites will bring manufacturers to the table for consistent standards. And the NMRA with it’s large numbers isn’t exactly a growing organization anymore. I applaud their focus and the work by a few but but unless a WHOLE lot of Large Scale people join the NMRA and pressure manufacturers, it’s just more standards that no one will adhere to….
It takes numbers for those that WANT to do something about standards but more importantly, to do something to promote the hobby.
Stephen Podwojski
Founding Member
I.S.L.S.M.R.
[ April 20, 2004, 03:59 AM: Message edited by: Stephen Podwojski ] "
++++++
HAVING said all that back then…for informational purposes I will also say that I am going to pull the plug on the website this year [www.islsmr.com] and the islsmr.homestead.com site as it costs $ to host it and the $ is all but gone.
The best thing about the whole experience was the people I met through the process. I probably am going to keep the tips/hints section alive and the old ECSLSTS photo sections alive via the Lizardattitude.com site.
I will also add that you are going to have an issue promoting standards without the ability to $$ influence future train sales - that is - “if it isn’t scale or doesn’t adhere to gauge/coupler/etc standards - I am not buying it”. The best example of this is to take a good hard look at two other scales - HO and Ogauge [both of which are larger than Large Scale]. Frankly Ogauge is much like Large Scale. In other words - it runs the gauntlet from 3 rail toys to Proto48 2 rail. The vast and very large buying public will be influenced in purchasing Thomas the Tank train, The Polar Express and the soon to be “Hogwarts Express” [all made by Lionel and all 3 rail]. You saw Lionel starter sets [hardly to scale] sold ALL through the US of A in Target stores. A fairly remarkable feat by Lionel and their CEO [who came from Marvel Comics]. Mainstream stuff for sure and certainly not scale…not adhering to a lot of standards either…but a BUNCH got sold. Lionel alone had gross sales of about $62,000,000.00 in 2006. And pretty much all of their stuff runs on 3 rail track that is too wide for the “scale”.
Then there is HO. So you take your HO fanatic [NMRA’s plus plus on standards] and show him a string of USA Trains passenger cars being pulled by two Aristocraft E8s. WOW they may say until they start pulling out their calipers…
HO guy: “uh - your track is too narrow!”
LS Guy: “Yep - I know that…isn’t that train incredible looking?”
HO Guy: “The profile on that Zephyer dome car doesn’t look right”.
LS Guy: “Yah…someone told me that the real Zephyr domes where shaped different or something but it looks pretty good doesn’t it?. Too cool…eh?”
HO guy: “What are those god awful couplers - they are huge!”
LS Guy: “Huh? They look ok…the smaller ones are too expensive…Look at that baby pull!”
HO guy: “Man that track profile is HUGE!!!” Can’t you buy lower track?"
LS Guy: “Yah - but it doesn’t hold up as well outside…and it’s a pain to keep the rails leveled, the ballast gets all over that low profile track and derailments happen all the time…it’s not worth the headache. Heck an elephant can stand on that track an it won’t bend!”
HO Guy: “Where do you see elephants? Errrrr, no thanks…I am going back down into my basement…”
Niche hobby that has many niches within it…
Inherently - that is why ISLSMR didn’t go anywhere. Everyone wanted it to be something different. Kind of like everyone has a view of what “garden railroading” is…I mean, look at the varying degrees of discussion right here.
Ric Golding said:Jon Radder said:
So in my case of adopting Ric's scale (1:23.95 ?) what track standards would I use ????JR
Jon,Its 1:21.4 half way between 1:22.5 and 1:20.3. We need to be exact about this.
I couldn’t remember your number. I averaged 20.3, 22.5, 24 and 29 and got 23.95 - I’ve got all of those (don’t you?)
JR
Jon Radder said:Ric Golding said:Jon Radder said:
So in my case of adopting Ric's scale (1:23.95 ?) what track standards would I use ????JR
Jon,Its 1:21.4 half way between 1:22.5 and 1:20.3. We need to be exact about this.
I couldn’t remember your number. I averaged 20.3, 22.5, 24 and 29 and got 23.95 - I’ve got all of those (don’t you?)JR
Jon,
Yes, I have all of those, but my trend in the size of people is toward 1:22.5 and 1:20.3. The 1:29 people are treated like kids. That was meant to say the models of people in 1:29 are treated like kids. I’m looking at my track as 3 feet between the rails, but the equipment is often home built, so size is not as important as an exact model of something that already existed. So out of all this, all I can see is that another scale has been created - 1:23.95 and to that I say WELCOME. At least you are real close to a whole lot of buildings that are being created and probably not as close to scale as you are.
Pod,
I think your analogy of the history of ISLSMR is pretty much right on. And like you, I’ve made a lot of friends. My scale card is still in my wallet and used quite often. I don’t think any energy was wasted, because I have great memeories and have paid more for some dinners that I can’t even remember what I had.
As always, we carry on.
Quote:
Pod,I think your analogy of the history of ISLSMR is pretty much right on. And like you, I’ve made a lot of friends. My scale card is still in my wallet and used quite often. I don’t think any energy was wasted, because I have great memeories and have paid more for some dinners that I can’t even remember what I had.
As always, we carry on.
Ric - no energy wasted - for sure.
Stephen Podwojski said:
......................................Then there is HO. So you take your HO fanatic [NMRA’s plus plus on standards] and show him a string of USA Trains passenger cars being pulled by two Aristocraft E8s. WOW they may say until they start pulling out their calipers…
…
Hi Pod,
But what’s with the HO fanatic? He never even asked what scale it is! :lol: :lol:
BTW N, TT, S and O fanatics will feel slighted, their Standards are as good as the HO crowd’s.
Yes… LS is a fine thing, I’ve even got a slogan for it - apart from my “G - wie Gummi” pun, reserved for the “flexible products”.
" Large Scale – Large enough to do it right without going blind! "
A sentiment shared by many of the aging modelers who give LS a whirl.
Quote:.
N, TT, S and O fanatics will feel slighted, their Standards are as good as the HO crowd's
You forgot Z, On30, Proto48…
Pfffft.
All we need is more Big letters, small letters [“n”], “proto” and numbers to designate the what is running on what…
Stephen Podwojski said:Quote:.
N, TT, S and O fanatics will feel slighted, their Standards are as good as the HO crowd'sYou forgot Z, On30, Proto48…
Pfffft.
All we need is more Big letters, small letters [“n”], “proto” and numbers to designate the what is running on what…
Pod,
I didn’t add Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz, because it’s too early in the morning.
OK so: T (1:400); Z; N; TT; HO; S; O; 1; 2 … all of them have a scale ratio. Small letters and additional numbers don’t change the scale, they just change the gauge.
Which makes things much easier, both when calculating as well as when looking at “things”.
“G” really missed the boat on that, but hey! we have the WOW factor. From relatively small wow (1:29) to large WOW for 1:13.1
All this discussion about scale and gauge…Oh my!
I was always wondering how did we end up with a bewildering range of designations for LS scales, I mean G F Fn3 A 7/8 sheesh! its no wonder we cant agree on standards when everyone cant agree on a logical description of scales.
Vic,
Oh my, indeed!
Well, as I mentioned when I started in 2m I knew the scale is 1:22.5, the track gauge is 45mm, NEM-MOROP has clear standards for the track work, the wheelsets etc. Sooooooo … I go with that.
Kadee makes Gauge1 couplers which look OK on the 2m equipment and work as I expect from Kadee.
I also found that just because it says in a certain catalogue it is supposed to be 1:22.5 doesn’t mean diddly-squat; some of it is glaringly wrong , other stuff is “pretty close” and some stuff is “spot on”.
One could say “I’m in my niche” :lol: and there is an organization that has things organized to my liking. Hmmmmmmmm… I guess I don’t need another organization.
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Vic, ;)Oh my, indeed!
Well, as I mentioned when I started in 2m
Don’t you mean IIm?
2m means Two metres/meters.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
Terry A de C Foley said:Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Vic, ;)Oh my, indeed!
Well, as I mentioned when I started in 2m
Don’t you mean IIm?2m means Two metres/meters.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
Terry,
“2m” and “IIm” are used interchangeably by most Europeans who model that “stuff” http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=Spur+2&btnG=Suche&meta=cr%3DcountryDE
“Spur Zwei” is a bit more user friendly than “Spur römische Zwei”, at least it is to the German speakers.
And since the correct scale is mentioned :D, there’s hardly cause for confusion, what you say?
I guess from looking in on the rather civil discussion that I’ve opened up; that no set of standards will ever be accepted by the manufacturers, or the rail modelling fraturnity.
My one observation that really makes me wonder where all of this is going, and I don’t see any real answer for; is the production by one of the major manufacturers of a guage which is supposed to be showing all sorts of standards, such as “Track Gauge”, Wheel gauge, and yes even the plus and minus clearence of switch guard rails…BUT…their switches don’t even come close to abiding by their own gauge.
When asking of this discrepency, on their web page, the subject was dismissed as a cruel swipe at their products, by fans and management.
What should one gather from this experience ?
I do credit this manufacturer, for the gaul to produce the guage, which could be of great use, as it has many features; but then it is funny that they don’t even follow their own guage, when it comes to their switches.
You might note that the guage in question was met with wide approval, if one were to note that the first production run was sold out over night, so it seems.
Now; where is the NMRA (HO style) guage for large scale, seeing as they have standards for it…do they or don’t they ?
NOTE.....for those who might find fault with these observations:
I use their products (If you have any idea as to what manufacturer I'm commenting on) and only have the honest wish that they could or would clean up their act as far as track standards are concerned as it would do themselves a great favour, along with their loyal customers.