Large Scale Central

Ladder Roadbed Questions

Track and Trestles
#1

First off, I am relatively new to the forum and new to G Scale. This forum is a wealth of information. I have read many posts on the Ladder Roadbed method but still have a couple of questions. Just trying to learn as much as I can before I go off and make my own mistakes!

Here are the particulars of my layout. I live in Texas so temps will range from 110 to 20 F (thankfully, not often!). It needs to be as dog proof as possible (energetic 80 lb Giant Schnauzers). The layout does not lend itself to be raised. I will be using battery power. I will be using 332 Brass in 6 foot flex as well as 5 foot straights that all will be bent with a dual rail bender. I am going to try to avoid sectional track as much as possible.

Questions:

  1. What is the best way to attach the track to the ladder ‘rungs’? How snug should it be attached?
  2. How often should it be attached?
  3. Is it better to attach in curves or straight areas?
  4. I have rail clamps and Aristo/USAT rail joiners with screws. Should these be tight or loose to allow for expansion/contraction?
  5. Any other suggestions that will help?

Thanks for any and all input!

Tom

Aggieland & Big Sky Railroad

#2

Hi Tom,

Welcome to LSC.

On the fastening question, we use Llagas C215 flex and usually fasten it every 2 to 2.5 feet. Our temperature range is the same as yours, at first I thought laying the track at the median of the range would be ideal, if one leaves a few gaps. In the meantime I have changed to laying track when it is really hot and I left the track outside before that operation to go through some heating/cooling cycles.

On the dogs, hmmm at present we’re down to one Husky, but general experience with having two at the same time; keep them busy, wear them out on long walks and use largish rock around the circumference of the layout - scenically arranged (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif).

Ours doesn’t/didn’t really like rock climbing. But at least one was a ABS/PVC gourmet, nothing more intriguing than chewing on the irrigation components (she “unlearned” that in one season).

#3

Thanks Hans! I really enjoyed watching the progress of your layout in the forum. Quite an effort and great results.

Thanks for the input on the dogs! Our backyard is fenced so they have the run of it. Actually, it is the miniature schnauzer that gets the two giants riled up!

Tom

Aggieland & Big Sky Railroad

#4

Tom Bruch said:

First off, I am relatively new to the forum and new to G Scale. This forum is a wealth of information. I have read many posts on the Ladder Roadbed method but still have a couple of questions. Just trying to learn as much as I can before I go off and make my own mistakes!

Here are the particulars of my layout. I live in Texas so temps will range from 110 to 20 F (thankfully, not often!). It needs to be as dog proof as possible (energetic 80 lb Giant Schnauzers). The layout does not lend itself to be raised. I will be using battery power. I will be using 332 Brass in 6 foot flex as well as 5 foot straights that all will be bent with a dual rail bender. I am going to try to avoid sectional track as much as possible.

Questions:

  1. What is the best way to attach the track to the ladder ‘rungs’? How snug should it be attached?
  2. How often should it be attached?
  3. Is it better to attach in curves or straight areas?
  4. I have rail clamps and Aristo/USAT rail joiners with screws. Should these be tight or loose to allow for expansion/contraction?
  5. Any other suggestions that will help?

Thanks for any and all input!

Tom

Aggieland & Big Sky Railroad

Tom,

Track needs to be able to move. While HJ seems happy to attach it every few feet, I would loosely tie it down (so it can’t move too far sideways) and make sure you have ‘expansion’ joints engineered every 20-30’ (I think Split Jaw has a nice version - if not, use ordinary unscrewed joiners and solder a jumper around the joiner for electrical continuity.) On curves, you need to stop it moving outwards due to a heavy train hitting the curve - pegs between the ties or strips along the ties will help. Make sure it is dead flat and that the track is flat on top. And tie it down on curves as well as straights, but not too tightly.

Be prepared to adjust it after a couple of seasons. Get down to track level and look along the rails - any wiggles or high spots will be obvious.

#5

HJ uses track power, if you are using battery, joiners electrical connectivity is not an issue. Leaving joiners loose will probably allow them to loosen further and eventually lose the screws, but you don’t need to “step up” to rail clamps or better joiners.

Normally, I would not tie the track down as often, letting it float a bit more, maybe every 5 feet, BUT with your dogs, I think I would stay with HJ’s recommendation.

Greg

#6

With the Aristo joiners, one hole is slotted for expansion contraction, so the screws can be relatively tight. I do know about USA joiners. Brass track will expand (and contract) a lot, so expansion tracks are a real good idea. I would not leave clamps loose to do the job. They need to be snug to align the rails. Also, since brass expands and contracts like it does, I would loosely attach the track to the roadbed where you have to, to keep the track in place, but, personally, I would let it lay on the roadbed unattached as much as possible.

As I stated, these are my personal opinions, and your mileage may vary.

#7

USA joiners identical David.

Having to use expansion tracks really depends layout by layout. Some people have big problems, some do not.

I like the idea to just attach it in a few places and then increase the fastenings, but the dogs may be the driving force here.

Greg

#8

I use Aristo track with their screw joiners between most sections except at switches and bridges. I swapped the small hex cap screw for the truss head screw they use to hold ties on. I have some elevated wood roadbed and some ladder. On these I attach about every two feet with a #8 or so stainless screw. It’s snugged down pretty good.

My temperatures range from -10 to over 100F. I rarely have expansion / contraction problems with stainless track. I purchased a Splt-Jaw expansion track but never installed it. I have had some split jaw joiners pull open in winter and early this month the snow melted early on the elevated section where the straight track got a little squiggly in the sun after a cold night, but no kinks.

#9

One thing that hasn’t been addressed is the ladder, itself.

If you plan to use a synthetic wood, like Trex, be careful of sags, especially on the straights. My experience is that the synthetics will sag on the straights if not supported every six inches, or so. On a curve, there is enough tension that you can increase the distance between the vertical supports to 18 inches.

With wood, you can get away with two feet and more, between vertical supports. I bend quarter inch by inch and a half cedar or redwood strips to the radius I want, then laminate another quarter inch strip to that. Then i use the laminated strips to make the ladder. Its best to do it in place, if you can. Sometimes the radius that you make on the bench in the shop isn’t what you need on the layout.

#10

Welcome Tom

One thing that I didn’t see mentioned is that if you do use some sectional track make sure you remove the screws securing the rail to the ties. You want the rail to float in the ties. As for strapping the track down to the ladder I did but later went back and removed the screws especially in the curves as the ladder and the track have two separate expansion rates. This became a huge issue in full sun during the summer. If you do want to secure it to the ladder I have some areas secured with plastic zip ties which allow it to float some.

#11

Greg Elmassian said:

HJ uses track power, if you are using battery, joiners electrical connectivity is not an issue. Leaving joiners loose will probably allow them to loosen further and eventually lose the screws, but you don’t need to “step up” to rail clamps or better joiners.

Normally, I would not tie the track down as often, letting it float a bit more, maybe every 5 feet, BUT with your dogs, I think I would stay with HJ’s recommendation.

Greg

Greg,

Everyone’s mileage may differ e.g. let the joiners float to allow for expansion/contraction and either bridge the joints with flexible wire (definitely extra work) or add extra feeders to the track (also extra work).

On those dogs, if I could have trained ours to dig in the right places, it would have been a benefit. BUT they never dug in the area where the layout was planned and is now located. OTOH dogs and cats sure keep a number of other critters out of the garden (not including snakes).

#12

I built my ladder roadbed from a plastic wood composite called veranda. it was the worst mistake I ever made. First frost heave got me, which won’t or shouldn’t be a problem for you. Then where i cut the wood it absorbed water and started to twist causing all types of derailments. The other problem I had was the fact that the roadbed expanded differently than the track and would cause joints to buckle. For me it became way more problems than it was worth so it tore it up. If I was to do it again I would use PVC and I would float it instead of staking it down. Also, I would secure the track to it could move on the roadbed.

T

#13

I’m tearing out the rest of mine, so I know what you mean.

#14

I think Bob Hyman builds his out of PVC. That’s what we’re doing with a new stretch on Sully’s, and I think I got the idea from Bob.

#15

From reading the different and many posts over the years I believe that ladder roadbed is the cat’s meow if all the right conditions align e.g. as few rocks/stones in the soil as possible, a shallow frost line, relatively small moisture content (well drained soil) and low annual precipitation - but enough to have hardy plants thrive.
As my “dumb luck” would have it, it looks like most of that applies to our location.

#16

Wow! What a wealth of information! Thanks folks, I appreciate it.

Things that I picked up on:

  1. Remove all the screws from the 5 feet sectional tracks so they will float in the ties. I was figuring on removing some as I will be bending these but I will go ahead and remove them all.
  2. Attaching the track. I like the idea of zip ties around the rung and the tie. I am thinking that would hold it down, but still allow it to flex.
  3. This is the interesting part. I am building the ladder out of pool solar panels (Solar Direct). I installed these last summer on the roof and most were defective. The company sent me many replacements so I have lots left over. They are 4 x 12 feet and made out of corrugated black plastic. Think of cardboard made out of very heavy plastic (the water goes through the corrugated part to heat up). I am ripping these 1 3/4 inches wide for the side rails and using treated wood 5/4 inch thick by 3 3/4 wide wood for the rungs. The material bends easily one way and is quite rigid the other. Most will be buried. On the small amount that is raised, I am thinking of doubling it up or going with something else. I do not have much that will be raised and it will only be a foot maybe. One other note, With the 1 3/4 side width material, the 5/4 height of the rungs, that leaves 1/2 for the track to sit on and ‘in’ this channel. The thinking is to protect it from the dogs by having the sides even with the top of the rail. Then using ballast as well. I realize it will not look 100% authentic, but I am in track protection mode! I am going to install a section today to see how it works and looks, before I go into full scale production. I have about 300 feet to lay down initially.

Here are some pictures of the latest prototype (sides will be cut with a different saw to eliminate rough edges!):

I am anxious to get some feedback on this brainstorm!

Thanks again!

Tom

#17

Check for clearances, you might want to center (raise) your cross pieces so nothing hits the sides.

John

#18

Interesting use of materials. I’d try a test section for at least a full season before building an entire railroad that way.

One thing I learned the hard way is be sure those side rails are below the rail head and/or far enough out to clear running gear. I had a ballasted bridge with sides made from J-Channel for siding. Worked great until I got my first Shay. The counterweights on the motor jammed on the bridge side and stopped the loco cold.

#19

There are quite a few locos out there whose parts extend past the ends of the ties; cylinders, side rods, counter weights, cowcatchers, etc., even more so on curves. Likes been said before, I’d check the clearances on that plan before committing to it.

I would use something other than wood for those cross pieces too.

#20

Besides the raised sides creating clearance problems, you want this system to work well in the sun, i.e. expansion and contraction.

Many people with ladder track that is exposed to the sun (the ladder itself) had issues. This is when the ladder itself expands and contracts “out of sync” with the track. You have black material which will make this effect worse.

Also, I’ve heard the theory of removing screws from the rails to allow things to “move and equalize”. I don’t think this helps at all and I’ve seen it cause more issues, at best no difference. You need to realize that the friction of the rails in the ties is NOT even or constant. Over time, the rail gaps will still accumulate in some areas.

Look at the way the real railroads do it, the laws of physics apply for our scale like the big boys.

Greg