Greg does have a point, if the ties are not tightly secured to something. I have 3 or 4, 5 foot sections of 5 foot straight track, where the tie screws are still in place. I have had no issues with tie breakage on these sections. If the ties were tightly secured to something that expands and contracts at a different rate the the rails do, I might have had issues there. I do not know for sure.
I read large scale forums for about 9 years before I even started a railroad. I read all the “proven methods”, and some did not make sense.
After reading, talking, experiencing, there’s several things I have learned:
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Not every successful method works for everyone. Most people have a favorite way that works for them, and that is great. Assuming YOUR favorite method works for EVERYONE is WRONG WRONG WRONG.
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Slight differences in environment can make a big difference in the method that works.
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Many people assume that their method is the BEST or ONLY way, but some people live in an environment where MANY DIFFERENT methods will work.
Also, I saw a very common progression among many newbies.
- Try to lock the track and rails so it cannot move at all… glue, screws, etc.
- Heat and cool ripped something loose, so next plan is glue or screw the ties down, and let the rails float, remove ALL Aristo screws, etc.
- Still rips loose or big rail gaps appear… now let the ties move somewhat …
- Usually better now, either stop or completely free float the track in gravel.
- Usually everyone is successful at this point, although the ballast needs mainenance, and water can wash things out.
What’s funny is that because most people have removed the screws from their Aristo track by now, they think that was a good thing, and it is not necessarily so.
So, that is what I have learned, and with all the data I can gather, this is a true accounting for 90% of the people.
Greg
The only reason I removed the screws from my Aristo track was so that I could bend it into curves. The straight track, what little I have, still has all its screws in it. Or it did when I laid it, but now a few may have worked loose, I dunno.
I read, with interest, the different ways of doing things. I am a firm believer that if the end result is what was desired, then the method of achieving that result was not wrong, even if it differs from other methods.
Yes, we are modeling outside in the weather. The weather (environment) has a real big effect on our railroads. Thats something we hardly even considered when we modeled indoors (those of us who did model indoors before moving into large scale).
I did try attaching one tie to my trestle in the beginning, just to keep the track centered on the trestle. I used some thin steel wire to tie the tie to the trestle. Before the first season was over, that steel wire had broken. Now I just let it all float, and adjust when necessary.
This whole hobby is a series of learning situations, and that is why a forum like this is such a good thing. I do not have time to make all of the mistakes, so I ask questions to try and avoid some of the more common ones. And its best to get input from as many different people as you can. Some self appointed “expert” can lead you down the wrong path if you don’t get input from many folks. No, I am not pointing fingers at anyone here. I am just saying, the more input the better. For example, when I started in large scale, one of those “experts”, at the hobby shop, tried his darnedest to convince me to not “waste my money on metal wheels”. Fortunately I knew better, and I bought them anyways, just not from him.
So now that we have gone a bit off topic, back to the topic. I think ladder type roadbed, if done right, would add a lot more support to my track in certain areas. I haven’t tried it, and I do not know if I will. But it seams to me, in my opinion, that resting the track on the roadbed, and dressing it with ballast, would be the best way to go. The track is going to move, trying to stop that is only going to cause it to stress somewhere. Again, this is my opinion and your experiences may be different
What a great forum. I thank each of you for the time and thought in your replies. All the different points of view and methods are fantastic!
Ok, Gents, I built out the first section yesterday (pics below) and learned a few things which of course prompted a few more concerns and reading the new comments gave me more ideas.
After building a 10 foot section, staking it to the ground every 4 feet or so and then ballasting some of it AND reading the many comments, I do not think that I am going to attach the track at all. That will allow the track to float in the channel of road bed and ballast as the track and the roadbed expands and contracts. If needed I might go the zip tie route, but think I will wait and see. In watching the dogs, they do not seem too keen to step on it. Digging around it may be a different story down the road though!
My main concern, as was mentioned above, was the rate of expansion of the ladder roadbed and the track. Where the road bed is completely buried I am not too concerned with it. Where it is more exposed, I am. My lovely wife had a great idea when we were done. I took two 1 foot pieces of the black material, placed one in the oven at 200 degrees and the other in the freezer at zero. Then I measured the difference after a bit. Figure a bit less than an 1/8 inch difference in 1 foot with those two extremes. Over any sort of length that will really add up! Now I am rethinking the width of the ladder and instead of 3 3/4 inch wide to 4 inch wide. That will allow another quarter of an inch movement for the track inside the ladder channel. So if the ladder channel decides to resemble an anaconda and the track is not attached, hopefully the there will be enough room to allow the track to float around in the ballast and not have issues. Without question any areas that are raised will get use a different material, probably the cedar strips. Fortunately, there is not much of that in this first layout.
Ken mentioned about not using PT wood for the rungs. I played around with Trex, but all the Trex here are 5/4" deck boards with a nice deep wave on the bottom which takes it from 5/4" to 3/4’ in three spots (trying to save money on material I am sure). I cut these up and tried to use them on a prototype ladder system, but they split very easily when putting a deck screw into them. Has anyone used PT for the rungs and had issues with them rotting out? I know whenever I pull out PT fence posts, the top of the post may be hammered, but what is in the ground is usually still pretty good. Course in 5 years it would stink having to go back through and replace them. I may need to reconsider that now too!
Small section that was ballasted.
Thanks again!
Tom
PVC board would work for the ladder part instead of the PT wood. They used to sell it in 1 1/2" squares, but I haven’t seen it lately. They do have it in a range of sizes from 1x3" to 1x6" boards.
My local home depot has 3/4"x3/4" PVC trim board. It’s about a $1 a foot. The P/T wood will rot. if I remember correctly P/T wood has a 20 year lifespan in the ground when uncut. Once you cut it and expose the interior it goes down to a 5 year(ish) lifespan. Granted where you live can and will greatly change that.
T
I have used PT 2x2 for the rungs in the middle they will work but after time they will split. What works perfect though is baluster for the railings. It’s the correct dimension that you are after. I used a Weyerhaeuser product that has been discontinued for many years however I bet you could find something compatible. I see the Trex uses a hollow railing system which won’t work , the stuff I used was solid like this Veranda product.
All my ladder roadbed that was Veranda and in contact with the ground split and crumbled. I shoulda taken a picture of it after I tore it all out. Lots of work and money down the drain.
T