Large Scale Central

KVRwy Track Change Thoughts

Track and Trestles
#1

I really don’t know why I’m even thinking this - but that’s how the mind works.

So on the weekend of the Ops Session on Saturday Night I brought up the subject of some changes to the KVRwy and why. This was expressed in front of a bunch of people, including Ken, Bruce, Rodney, Denny and Mark. My thoughts were to elimiate some of the track work in the front and move more toward the back yard. The reason being is we just don’t use the trackage in the front, except for the OPs Session. Now that doesn’t mean I’m pulling it all out, but I may reduce the switching at Consolidated and except for the long and out of sight runs, consider it more for staging. Yes, Cat Dump stays. :wink:

Bruce stated the idea of think of a blank slate, not tearing all the trakc out, but what would you do if none of the track was there.

I brought up the idea of having switching or staging happening in structures, so when the day is complete there is nothing to put away. This idea has always been part of the plan. That’s why Fiddle exists in the garage, KV Shops is in the garden shed, Consolidated has a structure for storage and we go in the basement.

So I like this idea of the dual gauge tracks and a standard 1:20.3 train. We aren’t talking about something big, as far as mainline trains, but more along the line of the Bachmann 45 tonner with the standard gauge trucks, the flat car and maybe a boxcar or gondola. A terminal railroad, The Terminal Southern", that is a connection betwween the standard gauge world and the narrow gauge in the Valley.

So first questions, who has a good example of hand laid track outside?

How long has it been out there?

Are the ties wood?

What type?

What was used for spikes?

I’ve always liked Richard’s “Port Orford Coast” ideas and might want to draw from that.

#2

Photos attached show part of the dual gauge trackage I have completed, this has been outside approximately 5 years with absolutely no maintenance. If you look closely you will see some popped up spikes. I use PT ties I mill myself and stainless steel spikes from C&OCR. PT is not kind to steel products and the myth that steel spikes rust themselves in place has not proven true at least in my experience. Even real railroads have this issue, take a walk down any lesser used line and you will find plenty of them, at least the stainless spikes can be tapped back down, the steel ones usually just bend or break off. The main key is to predrill deep enough to clear the end of the spike. In my haste I don’t always go deep enough. Bear in mind that my track represents 42" gauge and standard gauge so there is only 14 1/2" between the inner and outer rails, in your case you would have 20 1/2" which makes switches and the like easier to work on. Just food for thought, I don’t promote what I use as my choice of materials and methods usually get pooh-poohed by the “experts” on track laying !

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/gary_buchanan/dgtrackage1.jpg)

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/gary_buchanan/dgtrackage2.jpg)

Here is a photo of one of the dual gauge switches at the time it was built

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/gary_buchanan/_forumfiles/dgcs01.jpg)

#3

The only place I have hand laid track is on the switches. The ties are spanish cedar which may or may not be available in most places. I get it from a Hardwood Lumber dealer that specializes in furniture grade lumber. The spikes are the same as what Gary uses. What I have changed from doing is using a solid piece of wood to build the switch on and switched to using 2 wooden 1" square rails under the track with the ties attached to that. To attach the ties to the wooden rails I’ve started using paneling nails which have ridges on them. I’m hoping this will keep them from popping up. Those nails I pre-drill. The spikes I don’t.

(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/rgseng/expansion/hesperus017.jpg)

(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/rgseng/expansion/hesperus014.jpg)

In the future I’m going to try using the trim plank rails to build the switches on. This, I hope, will make it easier to install a switch in existing track work. We’ll see how that turns out.

(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/rgseng/0801310008.jpg)

These 2 have been outside the longest (4years) and the only thing I’ve had to do to them is add the paneling nails to hold the ties down. BTW, Gary, that’s some beautiful track work on that dual gauge switch.

#4

Ken,

I never thought about it, but are those paneling nails aluminum? They actually feel like it when I think back. I’ve used those ring shank nails for lots of things. Do you also use the stainless steel spikes and one on each side of the rail and predrilled?

Gary,

Do your spikes go all the way through the tie? I’ve been told that is the way to make them not back out.

My thoughts are toward building a 6 foot jig to build a section of flex track, that would then be installed over stringers in a frame work like Richard Smith’s Port Orford Coast to get the shape I need. Part would be dual gauge, part would be only standard gauge. I’ve always liked someone’s railroad here on LSC or on MLS that ran in the top of the hedge, so I’m thinking using the fence to support half of the frame and the other half supported by some form of a leg. I like Rodney’s idea of a driven in piece of pvc, cedar bar in the middle of that and then another PVC pipe near the top or frame and adjustment made by a screw between the cedar post and the pvc pipes. However, I’ve also thought of those green steel fence post.

This railroad would be purely point to point with a terminus in the garage (Fiddle) and the other end in the garden shed (KV Shops) at some height of around 3 feet high with an interchange connection to the Valley at KV Cabins.

Just thoughts, but I appreciate everyone’s ideas.

#5

Ric Golding said:
Ken, I never thought about it, but are those paneling nails aluminum? They actually feel like it when I think back. I’ve used those ring shank nails for lots of things. Do you also use the stainless steel spikes and one on each side of the rail and predrilled?

The nails I use are steel, but they’re painted black and blend in with the tie. The spikes, I think, are stainless steel. They’re also black. The paneling nails I pre-drill. The spikes I don’t pre-drill, but they are on each side of the rail. If need be I use a nail set to snug it down against the rail. Speaking of RR’s that run on top of a hedge, I saw this one out in Seattle…

(http://www.trainweb.org/rgs/PacRim01.JPG)

(http://www.trainweb.org/rgs/PacRim02.JPG)

It was O gauge…

#6

Ken Brunt said:
Speaking of RR’s that run on top of a hedge, I saw this one out in Seattle…

(http://www.trainweb.org/PacRim01.jpg)

(http://www.trainweb.org/PacRim02.jpg)

No joy on the photos, Ken.

#7

Yea, I know, Steve…figgerin out the problem now…

#8

Ric,

I haven’t any hand laid track but a very few of my earliest code 250 switches came from PHS Rail and had wooden ties. Five were on the ground on the raised beds for about 3 years with no ill effects. A couple additionally are on the raised benchwork I now have and have been there since 2004 and have held up fine.

If you are planning on going to a raised benchwork and provide good drainage (the purpose of the hardware cloth screening and landscape fabric on the POC) then wood should hold up quite well if it is painted or oversprayed when installed. At least that’s been my experience here and we are noted for an “occasional” rain. hehe!

I don’t know if benchwork will be your answer or not but for me it’s made not only operation but maintenance much more enjoyable. I guess it depends upon your own priorities. Too, it’s much easier to remove should the need ever arise than a large number of raised beds.

I don’t advise attaching benchwork directly to a fence. Fences are notorious for becoming wobbly or being blown down by wind. Also you don’t know what your neighbor is doing to it on the other side. When the house next door to where I used to live rented out the occupant hung tire chains on the side fence. The fence was already a bit wobbly and when we had a wind storm the chains banged out quite a number of boards and almost brought a couple sections down. It had to be completely replaced. I would make the benchwork alongside a fence completely free standing to allow repairs & maintenance without endangering the RR. Also you can certainly plant hedges along the benchwork or even enclose the front with fence boards or stone, etc., for a nice finished, planter bed look.

If you need any info on the POC’s construction to help you decide your course please feel free to contact me either here, by email or phone. Both Ken and Bruce should have my phone number should you need it.

#9

Ric, no they don’t and that probably makes the problem worse. I use a double height tie and the reason for that is up till now all track work is been done on PT plywood which for longevity needs to be kept out of the sun. The double height ties allow for a heavier coat of ballast to protect the base. I have not found any spikes long enough to penetrate 1" thick wood.

#10

Ric This was part of the first layout I built back in 1998. I took it up 2 years later and it has been laying out side since I built it. I used Micro Engineering large spikes. It looks like just a few have backed out. The spikes were driven in with needle nose without a pilot hole. The ties are pine. These ties are pine and the spikes went all the way through the tie.[url=http://img526.imageshack.us/i/1005800.jpg/]

(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7726/1005800.jpg)

[/url] [url=http://g.imageshack.us/img526/1005800.jpg/1/]

(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/1005800.jpg/1/w480.png)

[/url] [url=http://img694.imageshack.us/i/1005799.jpg/]

(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/7351/1005799.jpg)

[/url] [url=http://g.imageshack.us/img694/1005799.jpg/1/]

(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/1005799.jpg/1/w480.png)

[/url] The turnouts that I make now are made of Trex decking and I use ME med spikes. This turnout is one of the first one I made last year and is holding up well. I did use pilot holes of .032.When I decided to try Trex I spiked a 1 foot piece, painted it well and then did 10 or 12 cycles of soaking it with water and putting it the freezer for more than 24 hours. The spikes held up well. [url=http://img97.imageshack.us/i/1005792.jpg/]

(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/2354/1005792.jpg)

[/url] [url=http://g.imageshack.us/img97/1005792.jpg/1/]

(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1005792.jpg/1/w480.png)

[/url] [url=http://img130.imageshack.us/i/1005793.jpg/]

(http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/7133/1005793.jpg)

[/url] [url=http://g.imageshack.us/img130/1005793.jpg/1/]

(http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1005793.jpg/1/w480.png)

[/url] When I build the turnout I also dado it for battens so they will lay flat on my roadbed [url=http://img97.imageshack.us/i/1005794k.jpg/]

(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/3370/1005794k.jpg)

[/url] [url=http://g.imageshack.us/img97/1005794k.jpg/1/]

(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1005794k.jpg/1/w480.png)

[/url]

#11
Ken Brunt said:
Yea, I know, Steve.................figgerin out the problem now..........
Disappointed! :)
#12

Gary Buchanan said:

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/gary_buchanan/dgtrackage1.jpg)

That is tits on a boar hog! :wink:

#13

Richard,

I’m not talking about copying your bench work exactly, just the concept. The hedge already exists and has been there for many many years. It gets cuts back every year to about 18 inches tall. It hides a cyclone fence that has been there since the week my son was born and he is 30. We own the property on both sides of the fence. I’m not talking about a wide shelf, but a foot wide box without hardware cloth or anything inside it, but the bracing and battens of the track in many places allowing the hedge to come up through the frame to the top of the track. Then as the hedge grows through the year and rises above the track, it will get trimmed back. I’ll post pics later, I’m on a lap top in Bloomington, Illinois, because we are taking the grandkids on their first train trip tomorrow morning to Chicago.

Ken and Gary,

I’ve just heard about spikes that go all the way through the wood not backing out and also nipping the points off the spikes and drive them down through a pre-drilled hole longer than the spikes, but I don’t know if they would hold good.

I’ve not thought about those ME spikes being stainless, I’ll check that out.

#14

Ric,
The ME spikes that I use are not stainless. I heard of the head rusting away on these but as you can
see in my photos, They are still there.
Rodney

#15

I thought this was a pretty good old picture showing the fence and the hedge.

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/rgolding/0600306%20003.jpg)

Now that pic is before the siding at “Sea Weed” was installed, but the area I’m wanting to show is the top of the hedge (before it grows up to the fence height for the year). I’m thinking a cedar wood box about 2 x 4 height, 12 inch wide with laterals across that will hold the battens that would by directly under the standard gauge rails by with a “U Bolt” to attach it to the fence to hold it laterally and then green steel fence post driven down through the hedge to hold the box up vertically for extra support. For sidings or industries the cedar boxes would be bigger.

#16

Rodney, thanks for the info on trex, I have a box full of trex ties that I milled up a couple of years ago following a deck project and have been planning on using them in a test area that needs new ties. The originals weren’t treated and now look like the ties on the unused portions of the EBT.

#17

So I’ll add my two bits Ric…first of all…I use ordinary 18 gauge eustucheoun pins from the Hardware store for spikes. Cheap and easy to find. When I originally started handlaying way back when…I used cedar/red wood ties as I could find it, and nailed them with wire nails to battens of the same wood. Thats pretty much all the trackage I had until I started using an elevated benchwork. This current incarnation at the new house is all handlaid on raised PT material. And since the track isn;t down in the dirt anymore and constant moisture isn’t really a problem, I started using regular pine ties.

As Gary pointed out I too am having a problem with spikes backing out. Originally I thought that the culprit was the same reason that roofing nails go all the way through the roof, that the expansion/contraction of the wood acted against the point of the pin pushing it back out. After Gary’s visit I did some research and observation. Seems that sometime in 2008 I started using 18x1" spikes thinking that greater penetration would mean more stable track for longer. Oddly enough its the longer spikes that are working their way out. Shorter ones installed a year earlier are still solidly in place. Seems that there is some sort of reaction of PT wood and steel thats causing it. The 3/4 to 1" pins are backing out while the 1/2 and 3/8 ones I used early on have rusted in place.

AS of this writing I am strongly considering the use of AMS or C&OC Ry tie strips to build maitenance free sections of track between the handlaid turnouts. I used to find handlaying quiet, contemplative work, now that I have a rather large space to build permanently, I’m increasing finding it a chore, and want to hurry up and get trains running instead of constantly building and fixing things. Stop by on the way to York! I happen to know ya can get there from here…

#18

Quote "I’m not talking about copying your bench work exactly, just the concept. "

Ric,

I didn’t think you were doing things the same way I’ve done. I just offered info if wanted to maybe open more options.

Your original layout in the back yard looks great and I can better see what you’re planning with the hedge thanks to the photo. As to spikes backing out my experience has been that steel spikes/brads stay in better even though they eventually rust. The rusting process helps them stick. It’s the brass or stainless ones that seem to come out more easily.

#19

Thank you all for the input. This is very much an exercise for the grey matter about how to build a dual gauge bit of trackage with a reason. To do this I have to develop the skills of hand laying track and turnouts, plus building a new type of bench work for my railroad and develop some removable bridges and trestle work. All of this would truely be a retirement project and right now that is still many years away. So the emphasis in the title of this topic is “thoughts”. Between normal expansion of the KVRwy, maintenance of equipment, train shows, oh and this rest of life thing, this is not a priority subject but it is something to contemplate and work toward. Thank you all again for your inputs.

#20

So why not just go a bit further and make it a electric interurban line , you will have the wood frame underneath to hold the overhead wire poles …you know you would like …" IT "

(http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0702/it1565.jpg)