Large Scale Central

Keeping track level over a long distance

Track and Trestles
#1

Hi everyone,

I am finally building a new rail line! It will be approximately 200ft (point to point) and I would like to build it as close to level as possible. The land is somewhat bowl shaped, so I will need to have the track follow the contour of the land in the most efficient route around the low-land as possible. Bassically, the mainline should appear to be a very large horsehoe curve.

I’m having trouble determining where I should start digging. While I do plan to have the roadbed raised 6 to 12in for most of the route, I want to ensure I don’t have to make large fills or cuts. What kind of tricks or tools should I be employing to assist in my route survey?

Thanks as always for your help and knowledge!

Jeff

#2

Anyone ever try using this?? http://www.harborfreight.com/16-laser-level-with-swivel-head-69259.html

#3

Hi Jeff

When I was putting my track down and planning the right of way while keeping a close eye on grades I pounded 2’ long PT stakes (ballasters) into the ground every 6-8 feet and used a level and a grade/angle tilt dial on a 2x4 to calculate the grade and keep it around 2%. In spots I had to remove soil and in others add it and in others it was really dug out for a bridge. In some spots I screwed the track to the tops of the stakes and filled in with ballast all around.

If you get tired of filling dirt up to your 6-12" height don’t forget you can add a bridge instead.

Happy RRing

#4

Rockwall Canyon Jeff said:

Anyone ever try using this?? http://www.harborfreight.com/16-laser-level-with-swivel-head-69259.html

Jeff,

I don’t know about that one in particular, but my pal Jerry borrowed a laser level to plan the roadbed of his new loop. Mike uses one (the one Jerry borrowed) to set up his portable live steam track every time.

I would suggest the laser level would be just what you need. Set it in the middle and have a lot of marker sticks handy and a big red pen. Run the laser along your ‘bowl’ and put in a stick every 6 ft or so, with a mark at the exact level position. You should then be able to eyeball the track location, repeating the laser exercise if you don’t like the first pass!

And remember the real thing didn’t always manage to keep the track level . .

#5

Jeff, that laser level (on my own tripod, not theirs) is what I used to survey my back yard when I was building my railroad. It works well, but best done in the evening as the laser is hard to see in bright sunlight. I drove stakes into the ground every 5 feet along the route, then used a yardstick on top of the stake to set it to the proper height. If you know you want the track to be level along a given stretch of track, then all the stakes should be the same distance below the laser. If you’re going on a grade, then you’ll have to do the math to figure out what the height differential is between stakes for your given grade. (For instance, with 5’ between stakes, a 2% grade would be a difference of 1.2" between each stake).

One important thing to keep in mind when using this system:

DO NOT KICK THE TRIPOD!

That moves things and all your numbers will be off.

Later,

K

#6

Hi Kevin, Pete and Todd

Thanks!

This is exactly what I will need to do. I couldn’t figure a clever way to find the lowest part of the “rim”, but the laser will do just the trick. The whole lot is on a slope, but the bottom of the bowl is by far the lowest land. I think I will set up the tripod somewhere on the bowl slope. Once I get a starting point and few marks in, I think Todd’s method will work perfectly.

This line will be as level as possible to allow for live steam models. I do plan to have some hilly branch lines off of this main trunk, but I wanted to try having the mainline nearly perfect. The reverse loops on each end of the 200ft will likely require the most work to maintain level. The aprx. 30ft dia loop nearest the house, which will be situated on a moderate slope will likely be the biggest challenge.

#7

Set your Tripod on a low spot in your yard. It makes it easier to do the calculations.

A very simple way to do the math is to do your measuring. Use a grid pattern or like Kevin did and regular interval over the path of the railroad. The idea to pound stakes into the ground is a good idea.

Write down all your numbers you get off the yard stick. Take the lowest number you get after you survey the entire property and make it zero. Then subtract that from all your other numbers to get the height above zero. This can then be used to figure grade.

If you want to keep level and minimize fill and cut, then find the average height of all the surveyed points and then use that as the height of your track.

Now the cheapest way to do this is:

  • Buy one of those cheap laser pointers. Heck sometimes they even give them away for free.
  • Tape the pointer to a small torpedo level.
  • Put the level on a box or table on a low point in your yard.
  • Make sure you level the pointer by using the level it is attached to. I actually used a “lazy susan” roller I had laying around. Then I could rotate the level whatever direction I needed.
  • Point the laser towards your first point. Make sure the level is reading level.
  • Read where the laser is hitting on your yardstick.

This method requires little in terms of tools. But will still be accurate enough for what we are doing.

#8

Or you could go to a local tool rental place and rent a builders level (transit) and tripod drive your stakes at given intervals along your route. Use any stick as a measure/marker. Down side, it is a two person operation

Or rent a laser transit with beeper, same setup but a one person operation.

When I started my table tops years ago I used the laser and beeper with stakes. Some of the marked stakes had to sit for years before the building reached them, but the marks were still good.

#9

While a laser level is certainly the preferred way; the old way was to use a clear plastic garden hose. Fill it with water holding both ends vertically at about the same elevation leaving a few inches of the hose empty at each end of the hose. Note the elevation of the water at each end of the hose is the same ; thus you have a level as long as your hose. If needed you can put together several hoses to get a larger water level.

#10

Jeff,

Here are a few photos to show the method I use. It works for level or grades.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users//bob_hyman/roadbed/DSC06976%20535x480.jpg)

I start by placing a flag every two feet along the proposed route.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users//bob_hyman/roadbed/DSC06993%20514x480.jpg)

I drive a 1 1/4" PVC stake at every flag position.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users//bob_hyman/roadbed/DSC07004%20640x480.jpg)

I position my PVC roadbed on the stakes and clamp it temporarily in place.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users//bob_hyman/roadbed/DSC07058%20640x480.jpg)

I set-up my cheap laser level on a camera tripod at a point where I can pan to point at each stake.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users//bob_hyman/roadbed/DSC07063%20480x640.jpg)

Starting at one end of the route, I use a 48" measuring stick standing on the top of the stake. I drive the stake further into the ground until I reach the desired position. You can see the red dot from the laser level on the measuring stick. Go to the next stake and repeat. Keep all the measurements the same for level track, or decrement it for a grade.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users//bob_hyman/roadbed/DSC07341%20640x384.jpg)

After all the stakes are driven to the proper depth, attach the roaodbed to the stakes, add the ties and rail, and apply the ballast. Here is one of my Granddaughters helping out.

Hope this gives you an idea of how simple it really is.

Bob Hyman

#11

The low tech way.
Some string, a $3.00 String Level and some stakes.
http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-42-287-32-Inch-Aluminum-Level/dp/B00002X2FC/ref=sr_1_4?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1383182255&sr=1-4&keywords=string+level

Harbor Freight has a plastic version for less than $2.00.
Ralph

#12

"…One important thing to keep in mind when using this system:

DO NOT KICK THE TRIPOD! That moves things and all your numbers will be off. . . . . ."

LOL

One of the first things they told us in first yr., Land Survey Technology !! Before they even allowed us to touch any equipment . . . .

#13

LOL, yep me too Doug when I took my first surveying class in college.

#14

Personally, I don’t want all my railroad track at the same level… My goal was to simulate a real railroad with inclines, cuts and such… Different levels to me make it much more interesting… Most folks do this by creating different levels with adding or removing dirt…

My railroad has many grades on it, and I try to keep it at 2% or less… It also covers a large area, so I can use these grades to my advantage… At one point on my railroad, I have/or will have 3 different levels with a distance from the lower track to thr top track being approximately 2 & 1/2 feet…

What’s really the most important to track level is the side to side level of the rails… the twisting of the rails from left to right, or right to left in a short space is what causes most derailments…

just my 2 cents worth…

#15

I agree with Andy. You really only need absolutely level track in yards or if you are going to run live steam without R/C. Otherwise, it seems like a lot of trouble to go to for little benefit.

#16

I agree with Andy and Steve too. My layout is on a four to six percent grade mountain slope, which
takes the use of cuts, trestles, bridges to approximate some degree of “level”, but makes the whole thing more interesting. Kind of like it that way.

#17

i agree too.sideways the track should be absolutly level.
but lengthwise one can build a real roller coaster without problems.
just dont make changes of grade that are steeper than 2% within one car’s length.

#18

A good friend, of some 20 years or more garden railway experience, advised me when I started laying track that locos and stock would accommodate a ‘roller coaster’ type track without much issue but a track that was uneven in a sideways direction was a recipe for disasters. He was quite right of course.

I have put thick ceramic floor tiles, which were scrap from a house renovation and have a simulated wood appearance, beneath all switches (four in total) on my main lines for track stability. I decided successful operations were more desirable that appearances.

#19

Rockwall Canyon Jeff said:

Anyone ever try using this?? http://www.harborfreight.com/16-laser-level-with-swivel-head-69259.html

The type of laser level you posted is only as accurate as the spirit level at it’s center. Over a long distance, even if the bubble appears to be centered, you could be off inches or perhaps as much as a foot.

For true accuracy, use a water level. Simply a piece of clear very flexible plastic tubing. Any length will do, but I would recommend at least twenty five feet. I spent my life as a carpenter. My water level never failed, period.

#20

Yes, I agree those laser levels with a bubble on a tripod are near useless when accuracy is needed. Totally reliant on setting the tripod perfectly level.
Why they even make them that way is beyond me when the laser pointer could be a part of a pendulum which would always be level if made correctly. One of the daftest tools I’ve ever seen. I’m glad mine got stolen and hope the thief now builds a wonky house.

You can use a standard garden hose with a few feet of clear hose clamped to the ends for reading levels over distance. Some dye in the water can make it easier to read. Never failed the Egyptians.

Andrew