Large Scale Central

Just off the wire....... (LGB)

Hi all,

This has just appeared on the Nürnberger Nachrichten website

NN said:
[b]Verhandlung vor dem Scheitern [/b]

Insolvenzverwalter: Das Intro-Angebot für LGB reicht nicht

NÜRNBERG (Eig. Ber./won) - Die Verhandlungen über die Übernahme des insolventen Modelleisenbahn-Herstellers LGB durch den Nürnberger Unternehmer Hans Rudolf Wöhrl drohen zu scheitern.

Wie der Insolvenzverwalter Steffen Goede am Freitagabend mitteilte, weicht das von Wöhrls Verwaltungsgesellschaft Intro am Mittwoch abgegebene Angebot zur Übernahme der Nürnberger Lehmann-Groß-Bahn LGB) «bezüglich des Kaufpreises sowie weiterer maßgeblicher Konditionen so stark von einer bereits gefundenen Kompromisslinie ab, dass mit einer Einigung auf dieser Grundlage nicht mehr gerechnet werden kann». Auf diese Kompromisslinie hätten sich alle Beteiligten bei einem Gespräch im MünchnerWirtschaftsministerium zubewegt, so dass eine Einigung «in greifbarer Nähe gewesen war», bedauert Goede.

Wöhrl bestreitet dagegen vehement, dass es eine solche Kompromisslösung jemals gegebenen hat. «Das war keine gemeinsam gefundene Kompromisslinie, sondern eine Forderung der Gläubigerbanken, der wir niemals zugestimmt haben», erwidert Wöhrl auf Anfrage. Und auch das am 2. Mai nochmals erneuerte, inhaltlich anders strukturierte Angebot habe den Banken-Forderungen durchaus Rechnung getragen, sagt Wöhrl, der sich entschieden gegen die Darstellung verwehrt, an einem jetzt möglichen Scheitern der Gespräche schuld zu sein. «Wir haben den Banken schon vorher mehrere Angebote unterbreitet, ohne dass die angenommen worden sind».

Unabhängig davon, wer diese Situation verschuldet hat: Leidtragende werden wohl die 130 LGB-Beschäftigten sein. Während die Wöhrl-Lösung deren Arbeitsplätze in Nürnberg gesichert hätte, bleibt nun vermutlich als einer der letzten im Rennen Konkurrent Märklin mit den Finanzinvestoren Kingsbridge im Rücken. Dem Vernehmen nach will Märklin bei einer Übernahme die Produktion in Nürnberg einstellen und die Mitarbeiterzahl auf ein Minimum reduzieren.
5.5.2007

© NÜRNBERGER NACHRICHTEN


translation:

HJ translates said:
[b]Negotiations at the breaking point[/b]

Insolvency trustee: Intro offer for LGB is not enough

Nürnberg - The negotiations regarding the takeover of the insolvent model railway producer LGB by the Nürnberger enterpreneur Hans Rudolf Wöhrl are threatened by a collapse.

The insolvency trustee Steffen Goede reported on Friday evening that the offer, on Wednesday submitted by Wöhrl’s management company “Intro”, for the takeover of Nürnberg’s Lehmann-Gross-Bahn (LGB) differs “in regards to the purchase price as well as other significant conditions to such a degree from the arrived at “line of compromise”, that an agreement on this basis is not anticipated.” Everyone at the meeting at the Ministry of Economics in Munich was moving towards the “line of compromise”, with an agreement “within reach” regretted Goede.

Wöhrl on the other hand is vehemently contesting that there was at any time such a compromise. “That wasn’t a mutually agreed to compromise, but rather a demand from the lender banks, to which we never agreed” replied Wöhrl when asked… And the renewed, in content modified offer of May 2nd took account of the bank’s demands, said Wöhrl, who resolutely denied the account that he is responsible for a collapse of the talks. “We submitted several offers prior to that to the banks, without any of them being accepted.”

Regardless of who is responsible for the situation: the ones to suffer will most likely be the 130 LGB employees. While the Wöhrl solution would have secured their jobs in Nürnberg, the last remaining contestant in this race is Märklin with Kingsbridge as the financial backstop. According to reports Märklin plans to cut the number of jobs to a minimum and to discontinue production in Nürnberg.


Comment

Aha! The banks know what the value is!

I guess the “G45/LGBoA” group best get their heads and money together

or

proceed to “Plan B” and kiss “Plan A” goodbye,

Looks like another stressful weekend for a certain group! :wink: :slight_smile:

So, why, when Shoentag paid 3.7 mil, INTRO offered double at 7.4 mil, is it not enough?
That means they have decided LGBoA IS part of the “deal”.
Does not bode well…

Could also mean that G45 may throw a lawsuit into the works to protect what they believe are their assets. That could be a monkey wrench that would wreck LGB totally.

MHO

Warren Mumpower said:
Could also mean that G45 may throw a lawsuit into the works to protect what they believe are their assets. That could be a monkey wrench that would wreck LGB totally.

MHO


Warren,

That’s possible … however…

a) are the listed assets still the same? or is there a reason why “Intro/LGBoA” would offer double of Schöntag’s offer?

b) if the assets increased, what caused that? did someone render a legal opinion that x, y and z were part of the insolvency assets?

c) is it fair to presume that this would be a German legal opinion?

d) is it fair to presume that whatever changed the list of assets was “sold”, transferred" or otherwise deeded with only German law applying at the time of the “transaction”?

Of course these are just questions that I would pose; remember I’m not a lawyer. :wink: :slight_smile:

It is fairly reasonable to assume that Goede wouldn’t make the statements he made if things weren’t really on the skids.

Wöhrl disputes the “line of compromise” statement … welllllll

e) would some one have kept notes/minutes of that meeting at the Ministry of Economics in Munich?

f) would there have been a memorandum of understanding?

g) or an agreement in principal?

Or did everyone just shake hands and then get back to their usual routine?
Yeah, sure! That is part of the proverbial German thoroughness, where "t"s are crossed and "i"s are dotted, isn’t it?? :wink: :slight_smile: This gets more interesting by the day.
I believe the “G45/LGBoA” guys will be very busy this weekend! :wink: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: And it won’t be with writing emails to banks or whoever!

First, I have no answers that you don’t already have. You are throwing questions…I’m throwing suppositions. With that thought in mind, think on this:

If I thought I owned various assets but somebody else claimed to own them too there would be the possibility of two things happening. 1. I could pay off the claimant and have my assets undisputed, or I could sue them for ownership. The decision on which route to go could be based on dollars. If I could buy out the other guy for less than the cost of going to court to settle the dispute that would be the way to go…especially if he also had other assets that I wanted to get my paws on. My suppositions say at this point it’s time to go to court. Now, will it be in Germany or the US? If it’s an either/or situation, then which court would be the most favorable to the desired outcome? Will there be a third party filing for insolvency should they loose the assets they thought they owned?

Some how, I just don’t think the pickle is Kosher…:confused:

Warren Mumpower said:
First, I have no answers that you don't already have. You are throwing questions...I'm throwing suppositions. With that thought in mind, think on this:

If I thought I owned various assets but somebody else claimed to own them too there would be the possibility of two things happening. 1. I could pay off the claimant and have my assets undisputed, or I could sue them for ownership. The decision on which route to go could be based on dollars. If I could buy out the other guy for less than the cost of going to court to settle the dispute that would be the way to go…especially if he also had other assets that I wanted to get my paws on. My suppositions say at this point it’s time to go to court. Now, will it be in Germany or the US? If it’s an either/or situation, then which court would be the most favorable to the desired outcome? Will there be a third party filing for insolvency should they loose the assets they thought they owned?

Some how, I just don’t think the pickle is Kosher…:confused:


Warren, :wink:

Very good, but when you sell or buy something in Germany it is quite customary to have the jurisdiction noted right on the contract. I have yet to see a German contract that notes anything but a German local as the settlement point of legal disputes. But there’s always a first!

It’s a pickle alright!

Was the sa…er transfer a German contract? Or did someone slip a miky in the deal and file the contract in that far away place across the pond…?? :confused:

Warren Mumpower said:
Was the sa....er transfer a German contract? Or did someone slip a miky in the deal and file the contract in that far away place across the pond....?? :/
Warren,

That’s why I wrote “there’s always a first.” :wink: :slight_smile:

Hans-Joerg,

IMHO Mr. Goede has his butt in a “sling”, & the banks are about to sling it… I say he made a terrible mistake with the first deal, now is trying to get back in good standing… If he flunks this time, he may no longer be a trustee, ever again…

PS A trustee has to be a plum deal, why else put your self through all the headaches!!

Are these posible outcomes from actions taken in Germany?

1 - IF LGB of Germany is declared bankrupt, ka-put, out of business, the interpretation of “out of business” could mean, could it not, the cessation of ALL useage of the word LGB. The outcome might then be G45 simply remains the name of a company that makes large scale trains as G-45 would no longer be able to use the word LGB. However, this scenario may not be in effect if LGB as a brand name is owned by the original owners of LGB of Germany and it could be (or was?) sold or transfered to G-45.

2 - If the above is possible whereby LGB useage is terminated, is not the strategy of G-45 to maintain both identities as G-45, an independent American company and retain its operating name “LGB of America”, while preserving the brand moniker “LGB?” LGB is then argued as a “brand name” used by G-45 and is consistent with its well-established operating name “LGB of America”. Further, if LGB of Germany fails, then the LGB “brand name” used by G-45 may be acknowledged to G-45 without complaint. After all, could not G-45 argue that its major corporate arm “LGB of America” was operating as an “independent” during the German bankruptcy hearings. Further, they could argue they were under negative circumstances manufacturing their own products as a USA corporation called G-45 with its major division called LGB of America. I have not heard of a “cease and desist” order coming from Germany for G-45 to stop operating as an idependent corporation using the name LGB. Was one issued?

These are just that, argument speculations.

To see the combination of LGB of America and the “LGB” branding, look in the direction of the new ad in the latest Garden Railways Magazine for this duplicity in corporate names: LGB in bold print as the brand name with LGB of America as the corporate manufacturer. Meanwhile, back in Germany, LGB has failed financially.

Amazing events!

Wendell

One other thing that I picked up.
The banks own LGB.
They own the trademarks, patents and copyrights, not that it is in default.

Bets are they will enforce their ownership, i.e. nobody gets to use any of it (including names) until its paid for and the banks sign off on it.

But LGB of America (LGBoA) is not the same name as LGB. Nor is there any way that the banks could stop the use of G45 as a brand…or the product being sold in a red box that remarkably looks like an LGB box.

Personally I believe that should Marklin or other competitor win the bid that G45 could easily knock them right out of the competiton. It’s my opinion that if they don’t scratch G45’s back the LGB name is dead. This has been too much of a cluster f*** so far but I figure someone is going to get nasty fairly soon. That usually happens when a desired business deal goes wrong.

Warren Mumpower said:
But LGB of America (LGBoA) is not the same name as LGB. Nor is there any way that the banks could stop the use of G45 as a brand...or the product being sold in a red box that remarkably looks like an LGB box.

Personally I believe that should Marklin or other competitor win the bid that G45 could easily knock them right out of the competiton. It’s my opinion that if they don’t scratch G45’s back the LGB name is dead. This has been too much of a cluster f*** so far but I figure someone is going to get nasty fairly soon. That usually happens when a desired business deal goes wrong.


Warren,

G45 knocking Märklin out of competition… :lol: …

Why do you think the G45/LGBoA clique is very, super interested in getting that bid? Doesn’t it look like it’s time for them to put their money where their mouths are and cough up the eXtra millions?

But Wöhrl isn’t going to spend oodles just to please G45/LGBoA; as a matter of fact he has a reputation of knowing what he wants for which reason, doesn’t suffer fools gladly and does it his way.
He sure doesn’t sound as pliable as Schöntag and he won’t be hung out to dry, not from what I hear anyway! :wink: :slight_smile:

As far as people getting upset, wellllllllll there was a mention of “gangster” demands not long ago. That would indicate that nerves are getting a bit frayed. :wink: :slight_smile:

Wendell,

Ahhhh, it is more like the creditors lit a fire under Goede’s backside. Goede can’t close off on this one as long as there are people who come up with an offer that is acceptable to the banks. Now, we already know that the banks want to

a) either lease the property and buildings (Something Märklin is quite willing to do)

b) wait for the price of the real estate bid to get to their point. They weren’t happy with the first deal and by the looks of it they’re not going to give on that point. (Sooo now it remains to be seen if the Intro/LGBoA bidders will come around to the banks point).

Remember one thing: Why would Märklin be bidding if the value isn’t there?

“G45” could be planning on “Track B”, but they would need to make sure that the gauge is wide enough, the track is layed properly and that the wheels don’t come off on the rolling stock. Metaphorically speaking! :smiley: :smiley:

In the meantime: inventories are shrinking, many German dealers are fed up and flogging whatever they still have. Which brings one to the next point, as a manufacturing entity LGB can survive without the USA market, can G45 survive without the European market share that LGB had up to Sept 2006?

Oh yes… and consumers are getting used to sourcing track and other stuff elsewhere.
Not that I’m clairvoyant or have a highly polished crystal ball, but didn’t we mention that months ago, to much derision from the LGB Ventilators? Yeah well… :wink: :slight_smile: :wink:

Fools carry their daggers in their open mouths.
- Henry Wheeler Shaw

John Joseph Sauer said:
Fools carry their daggers in their open mouths. - Henry Wheeler Shaw
So profound, JJ!

You know what’s funny?
Everytime there’s a bit more in the papers ready for translation I ask myself: “What will the reaction be from Mount Airy, MD?”

And the answer is always the same: “Who cares” :wink: :slight_smile:

BTW do you really live in Mt Airy, MD?

Pretty much the same way I feel about all the garbage you post my friend!

Master Sauer.
You do not, and I repeat for possible penetration, do NOT have to read it.

Your only commentary of late is personal, since you appear unable to refute the published data or the translation thereof.

Your responses are solely of a shill nature, attempting (in vain) to divert attention form actual, factual data by personal attacks.

Trust me, you did not invent this tactic.
And, you are not very good at it.

HJ, I wasn’t very clear what I meant. I wasn’t talking about putting Marklin out of business, but knocking the socks off Marklin’s LGB line should they continue it as LGB did in Gummi Gauge. I believe, regardless of what happens…and provided nobody goes to jail, that whatever G45 does it will be far closer to scale than anything previously provided by LGB in it’s regular line. And yes, I do believe that G45 is capable of capturing a significant portion of the European market. Granted I don’t think G45 could damage Marklin’s current offerings, but should they continue the Gummi Gauge, the offerings from G45 will blow their socks off. It’s just a matter of what do people want…scale models or caricatures. I also believe that regardless of who gets LGB, the current line of trains…with exceptions, is dead. To survive and regain what it’s already lost in just the last 6 months, LGB will have to revamp it’s model line and bring it closer to scale. Maybe I have a little more faith in the powers at G45 than you do.

Warren Mumpower said:
HJ, I wasn't very clear what I meant. I wasn't talking about putting Marklin out of business, but knocking the socks off Marklin's LGB line should they continue it as LGB did in Gummi Gauge. I believe, regardless of what happens...and provided nobody goes to jail, that whatever G45 does it will be far closer to scale than anything previously provided by LGB in it's regular line. And yes, I do believe that G45 is capable of capturing a significant portion of the European market. Granted I don't think G45 could damage Marklin's current offerings, but should they continue the Gummi Gauge, the offerings from G45 will blow their socks off. It's just a matter of what do people want...scale models or caricatures. I also believe that regardless of who gets LGB, the current line of trains..with exceptions, is dead. To survive and regain what it's already lost in just the last 6 months, LGB will have to revamp it's model line and bring it closer to scale. Maybe I have a little more faith in the powers at G45 than you do.
Warren,

I’m from Missouri, Show Me!

Two indications,

  1. from the GR mag, which, yes this was a long time coming, finally pointed out the fact of “No scale stated!”. Welcome to the world of LGB!

  2. When asked what scale the Genesis and the Amfleet cars are Jack Lynch, Marketing or whatever manager he is now of LGBoA, replied: “As close to 1:29 as I can get it”.
    Then one measured and compared and … behold: the scale is from 1:25.5 (height) to 1:27.6 (width) to ca. 1:30 (length). If that is “close to 1:29”, how is Jack Lynch’s golf game? Or is it horseshoes he plays?

So, I’m from Missouri: Show Me! :wink: :slight_smile:

Of course there’s the little matter of Märklin having deeper pockets than G45 - remember "Puffbuff"s interview with the LSOL honcho, what’s his name? :wink: , where he mentioned that G45 doesn’t have deep pockets.

Starting from scratch takes deep pockets, if I should ever win the lottery in a big way I’ll be in the 1:22.5 rolling stock business. :wink: :smiley: :lol:

Please pardon my ignorance, but what is G45?

I haven’t really looked at the Maerklin line for many, many years but recently they had an ad’ in Garden Railways. It was a close up of an F unit. I thought it was some sort of joke, or that maybe they had used a photo of a Z scale model by mistake. Since then I can’t take them seriously.