Large Scale Central

Is this normal?

Electronics Live Steam
#1

I think I may have bent the drive shaft on my new Shay. First time the engine ran outside the counterweights or rod-ends collided with parts of some of my bridges. I started noticing that the running gear was making quite a bit of noise and wasn’t quite as smooth as the first few runs indoors.

I recorded a short video of the engine running on air with the drive shafts disconnected. Take a look and listen to the action. Does it sound overly noisy or is this normal??

http://www.lscdata.com/videos/view_video.php?viewkey=328a42e0eb13d585e4c2

Jon

#2

First, let me say that I have never owned or run a live steam locomotive or shay.

But what I did notice…and don’t know if it’s normal or not is that the shaft that runs through the bottom cams has a slight wobble to it. Both ends wobble at slow speed. At high speed it appears only the right side does. I’m talking about the shaft that sticks out the end…not the cams themselves.

#3
Warren Mumpower said:
[i][/i]what I did notice..and don't know if it's normal or not is that the shaft that runs through the bottom cams has a slight wobble to it. Both ends wobble at slow speed.
Yes, This is very noticeable when looking at it live. The bounce, or wobble is at both ends and is in time exactly with the click.

These entry-level engines are not machined to very tight tolerances, so it might not be unusual. I’m kina hoping that one of the guys that have the 2 Cyl. Shay will chime in and let me know.

I spoke to Royce about it and he doesn’t think I could have damaged anything by running into obstacles. All I know is that its noisier than a '62 Chevy with 75K miles :slight_smile: It also tends to bind at very slow speeds.

Jon

#4

It appears that the other owners are not dinging their dongers…must be their chimes are not working…so I will say this: I’ve heard other 2 cyl shays run in vids and they also seem to click (or should I say clatter) like a room full of telegraph operators all talking at once. :smiley: It’s something I’ve found very noticeable.

#5

Hi Jon,

Saw your video and read your tale. Mine clicks, but I don’t know how much it wobbles. Did you grease it? Oil on the wear surfaces and grease on the gears and shafts, plus the sliding joints. Somebody with more experience than me will give a more valid opinion.

#6
Ric Golding said:
[i][/i] Mine clicks, but I don't know how much it wobbles.
That's good to hear. It might just be normal. Sounds kind of like a sewing machine. The wobble wouldn't be noticeable while running. With the universals off and the shaft exposed you can see it, but if everything were connected and moving it would be very difficult to see.

I’ve had other Shay owners look at the video and say they don’t see or hear anything unusual.

And yes, I’ve oiled it per the instructions. Never used any grease though. Book doesn’t say anything about that. I’m using a light machine oil everywhere. What type of grease are you using?

Jon

#7

A light gear lube. Some of the hobby stuff that is super slick. I think there would be a lot that would work. Gears are gears, don’t overlaod and keep it clean. The grease picks up grime which can be used as an abrasive, so more important to keep clean grease as opposed to what type.

I’m sure there are other opinions. :wink:

#8
Ric Golding said:
A light gear lube. Some of the hobby stuff that is super slick. I think there would be a lot that would work. Gears are gears, don't overlaod and keep it clean. The grease picks up grime which can be used as an abrasive, so more important to keep clean grease as opposed to what type.

I’m sure there are other opinions. :wink:


You’re right there, Rick, good advice. Gear grease on gears is good, although Accucraft say a light oil suffices. Any good light grease on the sliding drive shafts will do the job adequately. Neither of my two Shays makes a sound like that one does, though…

tac, back from Oregon [boo hoo…]

#9
Terry A de C Foley said:
[i][/i] Neither of my two Shays makes a sound like that one does, though...

tac, back from Oregon [boo hoo…]
www.ovgrs.org


I’ve been listening to a lot of Shay videos on Youtube. None of them have the singer sewing machine sound effects. Methinks sumthin’ is busted.

Jon

#10

Jon, I have noticed my Shay makes more noise running on air than steam. Maybe on steam some parts expand from the heat and some of the ‘play’ comes out of the linkage and moving parts. Just a thought. Nick Jr

#11
Nick Peluso Jr said:
Jon, I have noticed my Shay makes more noise running on air than steam. Maybe on steam some parts expand from the heat and some of the 'play' comes out of the linkage and moving parts. Just a thought. Nick Jr
You are correct - running on steam makes certain parts expand in the heat and fit tighter than when running on cold compressed air.

In any case, the addition of gloppy steam oil tends to quieten things down as well - I ran my three-cylinder Shay yesterday in the interests of science and got the usual very nice ‘shuffling’ Shay beat. Sure there is some mechanical noise, but with all those flapping and whirling twiddly bits I would be amazed if there weren’t.

But noisy clanking and dinging noises are not the norm, I agree. Just goes to show that a modicum of care and attention goes a long way towards ensuring a reliable long life for our little steamies - we have a responsiblity to note what what they are doing, and not to let them go around crashing into sundry parts of the landscape. Certainly, at the prices WE have to pay over here, mine are all treated like VERY precious items - the three-cylinder version was around $2800 in yUK when I bought mine almost two years ago.

Don’t even think about the price of the ‘cheapie’ K-27 [$6000], or the Garratt [$6600]…let alone the Aster stuff.

tac

#12
Terry A de C Foley said:
[i][/i]

But noisy clanking and dinging noises are not the norm, I agree. Just goes to show that a modicum of care and attention goes a long way towards ensuring a reliable long life for our little steamies - we have a responsibility to note what what they are doing, and not to let them go around crashing into sundry parts of the landscape.


I don’t disagree Terry. In my excitement of being able to allow the Shay to roam outside for the first time I completely forgot to check the clearances first. Other 1:20 locos had been up the line with no issues. In fact, the first time it bumped I really had no idea what was happening. The action was facing away from me when I heard a bang and the loco began to wobble. At first I thought there was a problem with the track. It was only after it did this a second time that I noticed the bridge edging was interfering with the rod ends.

I call theses costly mistakes Stupid Tax. I’ve paid quite a bit of it in the past and I’m sure I’ll pay more in the future. In this case it may not be a lot of money, but rather the inconvenience of down time while I repair it.

Jon

#13
Jon Radder said:
The action was facing away from me when I heard a bang and the loco began to wobble. At first I thought there was a problem with the track. Jon
This is one of the few times that having a teeny Charlie Brown roundy-round track can be beneficial - there is nowhere on my 75 foot track that cannot be seen without swivelling the neck, and I have no structures of any kind on it, as it is on sticks.....

tac

#14

Thanks for looking in again Terry.

My line is quite small too, and I can walk right along with the trains. What I may not have communicated well was that although I was right next to the loco when it bumped, I wasn’t watching the cranks as I was on the “wrong” side of the loco. I’m never more that 10 feet or so from a running train.

Jon

#15

I did some more test running last evening while fine tuning an R/C servo install. Running very slowly and observing through my 10X opti-visor I finally think I have found the source of the clank. I no longer believe I have a bent crank - the wobble in the crank is caused by a binding in the froward cylinder’s cross-head. I tried the test both on air and steam and found the noise to be the same or louder under steam. Starting a BDC, as the front crank goes off-center and cylinder rises, the connecting rod suddenly slams the cross-head to the opposite side of the cross-head guide. This is the click. As the cylinder continues through TDC and back down, there appears to be a binding of the cross-head in the guide just before BDC. No amount of lubrication seems to stop this from happening. As I was lubricating in an attempt to relieve the binding I noticed very fine brass dust in the oil. This tells me that I am getting quite a bit of rapid wear of either the cross head or the guide. You might be able to see the brass dust in this photo… [url=lsc.cvsry.com/ShayCyls1024.jpg]

(http://lsc.cvsry.com/ShayCyls640.jpg)

[/url][color=blue]Look at RH cross-head guide casting just above counterweights - Right Click Photo and select Open Link in New Window to Enlarge -[/color] I took another short video close-up at very slow speed. If you turn up the volume you can hear the cross-head contact the guide with a noticeable click. You can also see the binding just before BDC. The video is about 20MB so you might not want to try it on dial-up. http://lsc.cvsry.com/ShayClick2.AVI Here’s a compressed LSC Video version http://www.lscdata.com/videos/view_video.php?viewkey=4f8dddeb95fc584cd965 I think it’s time to make a call to Accucraft. They should be getting back from Diamondhead by now. Jon

#16

Jon, so what has happened since your last posting??? Nick Jr

#17

Not much. I need to make some phone calls - just haven’t got to it.

#18

Jon,

Do you need a Round Tuit? I have them for sale!

madwolf

#19

Well, that Round Tuit I ordered months ago finally arrived :smiley:

Both Royce Brademan and Cliff at Accucraft think something isn’t quite right, so they have asked me to send it back. Accucraft will either fix it at their shop, or send it to Dave Hottman. If Dave can’t fix it they’ll replace it, but I doubt that will be necessary. In any case, Cliff said Accucraft will pick up the freight and cover repairs under warranty. That’s exceptional service.

So off to Accucraft it goes. I doubt it will be back in time to bring to ECLSTS.

Jon

#20

Jon, thanks for the update, I was wondering what happened. Accucraft’s service has always come through for me. Nick Jr.