Thanks for the correction Jon, I should have had more coffee while looking at that link… interesting that LSOL is offline, but the pictures are all still there and online.
Greg
Greg Elmassian said:
What would it be worth to me to not fix the locos before running them?
I think you are going down the road of “spend more and get better quality”… well that is NOT always true, I’ve seen VERY FEW locos that did not need a tweak or two out of the box.
And, I did do this evaluation of spending more time fixing/modifying/repairing less expensive locos as opposed to a more expensive “bulletproof” one.
the bottom line was that “breakthrough” items (for me) were worth it… I’ll give concrete examples…
Aristo Stainless steel track vs. H&R stainless… when I started I quickly determined I was only going stainless, brass oxidized overnight where I live. The Aristo was HALF the cost. So I could put up with the occasional bent joiner, misplaced holes in the ends, tight gauge, and lower quality ties. It made a lot of economic sense and 10 years later it still does. I found out how to keep the ties from crumbling and used split jaw joiners, etc.
Aristo and USAT diesels vs. LGB. Again the breakthrough was 1/2 the price. I can justify the modifications and extra maintenance for the 1/2 to 1/3 price discount. Yes, maybe they won’t last as long but the repair parts are much cheaper, and I have many more locos for the same money. Again a good tradeoff for me.
Aristo switches vs any other brand. Aristo wide radius switches and #6 switches have a number of problems, but they are all pretty easily fixable, frogs, wiring, etc. Again 1/2 the price of something quality. My WR switches will allow you to back 50 car train through them now.
I can give a number of examples, but the result is a little work for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost.
Again, if I had just a few locos and a few cars the total difference might not be worth the bother, but with the quantity I have, I’ve made a good decision and am still pleased with it years later.
Kevin, I don’t want to debate you, I know your style and where you are going.
These answers are from my personal perspective, mainline trains, lots of them, lots of pulling power, consists of multiple engines. Your personal perspective is likewise coloring your approach, small layout, few locos, short trains, no consisting, etc.
Neither of us is “right” for EVERYONE… although I maintain that the entire topic, which I started, is about mainline trains… unless you can show me an MTH narrow gauge presence…
The topic is about Mike Wolf’s perspective on the hobby and especially how he perceives the rise and fall of LGB and Aristo.
Greg
Kevin Strong said:
Greg Elmassian said:
…thus price made a very big difference to me, since my goal was to have lots of locos and lots of cars…
What would it be worth to you in terms of added cost to not have to fix the locomotives you run on your railroad before they so much as turn a wheel for you? No doubt it’s gratifying to watch the trains you have run around your garden as you envisioned they would when you first started your journey. Would you accept the premise that the journey would be just as rewarding if it took a bit longer at a slightly greater out-of-pocket expense, but without the non-financial costs associated?
Later,
K
I found your thoughts here interesting. If I understand you correctly, what you are espousing is that spending a little for something that is made not so well, but with a little more money can be made to perform better or more realistic is the way to go. I might be wrong in my analysis, but it seems prudent for one that is, on a fixed budget or, limited income to invest in decent model railroading equipment and if it needs work to make it better in the performance area, then that is really what model railroading is all about. As an example. I traded a fellow my GP9 high hood USA trains Western Pacific for a BNSF Dash 9. When we met, I had no idea what the heck I was doing. All I knew is this: I wanted that Dash 9 and was willing to part with a brand spanking new GP9 for it. So, the fellow shows me the Dash 9. Man was it in rough shape. Let me put it too you as plainly as I can. I found a nest of spiders in the cab and the engineer was in the back somewhere…LOL There was mud all over this poor pathetic looking engine. The wheels were pitted and rusty and pieces were either missing or broken off. Yet…Yet I did it anyway. When I got home. I placed this dirty little girl on the tracks and she stood right there even with full power. So, I cleaned the wheels the best I could and placed her right back on the tracks. Talk about stubborn. She bucked a little and seemed like she wanted to go. Finally, out of frustration, I pushed her a little and after a little more pushing she made the loop. I cleaned her up. I repainted some areas and replaced all missing or broken parts. Except for the new motor trucks I need to order, she is a first rate engine and I might add, the fading of the paint and all that grime and dirt has made this engine look incredibly realistic. The spiders? Well, they are MIA in my basement as we speak! LOL The point of my little story was: I agree, it is sometimes better to spend a little for something that is not all that great to begin with, but can be made into something really special. That is, if I understood your statement from above. If not, my apologies sir…
Thanks, Stacy
“If I understand you correctly, what you are espousing is that spending a little for something that is made not so well, but with a little more money can be made to perform better or more realistic is the way to go.”
I think that works in terms of details. Without question buying inexpensive and adding your own makes up a good bit of activity in this hobby. We see inexpensive rolling stock and locomotives being detailed and weathered on these forums frequently.
However, when it comes to mechanical operations, I think we’re on much shakier ground. While it’s a common practice for us to do so–often out of necessity, we do it while at the same time loudly criticizing manufacturers for not building things right in the first place. For the manufacturers, correcting their mechanics with better gears, better axle designs, etc, will at least add marginally to the cost of the equipment. That was the crux of my original question to Greg–how much of an increase in the price of the locomotives he buys would he accept if it meant the manufacturers could improve QC such that we don’t have to fix things prior to putting them on the rails.
When you’re talking about getting folks into the hobby and keeping them, there are two components; price and quality. It’s an expensive hobby, but there are plenty of “entry-level” type locomotives (0-4-0s, small diesels, etc) that can be produced fairly inexpensively to lessen the sticker shock. However these locos need to run reliably if we want people not to get frustrated. Forums are full of threads along the lines of “I bought this loco as my first, it died. I’m done!” I don’t know how building locomotives that you have to re-gear, re-motor, or re-wheel is a sustainable business model, no matter how inexpensive they are.
If the goal is to keep costs low on the entry-level stuff, it’s far better to cut back on the detail of the model. A locomotive that looks not so great out of the box but runs well can be made to look great and run well. A locomotive that looks great but runs poorly will most often end up a shelf queen. Shelf queens don’t grow the hobby.
Later,
K
If I may be so bold, I think that Hartland Locomotive Works (H-L-W) has just about hit the mark with their locomotives, US designed and manufactured, built strong enough to withstand a child’s assault, but with sufficient detail to satisfy me, and capable of being upgraded in detail. The one that I have will pull stumps. The price they ask is certainly not outrageous, either.
Mine is labeled for Uncle Pete, but this one is nice, too. 
Beautiful locomotive Steve. Really first rate.
If I had the money, I’d start my own large scale business via store and mail order. Mine would be strictly large scale and my idea would be a combo warehouse slash store type facility. I once visited the Caterpillar dealership (I love bulldozers too) and I thought their layout was awesome. Large warehouse with a store front. Kind a like a bar where a bunch of guys sit and drink and talk about whatever, but the point was, it seemed so friendly. That is the key. Friendly. Most in here have done all kinds of scales. I know I have, but large scale just satisfies me in ways that only a curvaceous women might…LOL
Anyway, I would make every single effort to avoid Chinese mass produced nonsense, but I fear that would make my business all but impossible. jmo
Stacy
Kevin Strong said:
“If I understand you correctly, what you are espousing is that spending a little for something that is made not so well, but with a little more money can be made to perform better or more realistic is the way to go.”
I think that works in terms of details. Without question buying inexpensive and adding your own makes up a good bit of activity in this hobby. We see inexpensive rolling stock and locomotives being detailed and weathered on these forums frequently.
However, when it comes to mechanical operations, I think we’re on much shakier ground. While it’s a common practice for us to do so–often out of necessity, we do it while at the same time loudly criticizing manufacturers for not building things right in the first place. For the manufacturers, correcting their mechanics with better gears, better axle designs, etc, will at least add marginally to the cost of the equipment. That was the crux of my original question to Greg–how much of an increase in the price of the locomotives he buys would he accept if it meant the manufacturers could improve QC such that we don’t have to fix things prior to putting them on the rails.
When you’re talking about getting folks into the hobby and keeping them, there are two components; price and quality. It’s an expensive hobby, but there are plenty of “entry-level” type locomotives (0-4-0s, small diesels, etc) that can be produced fairly inexpensively to lessen the sticker shock. However these locos need to run reliably if we want people not to get frustrated. Forums are full of threads along the lines of “I bought this loco as my first, it died. I’m done!” I don’t know how building locomotives that you have to re-gear, re-motor, or re-wheel is a sustainable business model, no matter how inexpensive they are.
If the goal is to keep costs low on the entry-level stuff, it’s far better to cut back on the detail of the model. A locomotive that looks not so great out of the box but runs well can be made to look great and run well. A locomotive that looks great but runs poorly will most often end up a shelf queen. Shelf queens don’t grow the hobby.
Later,
K
Oh I agree K. Especially your closing remarks. The thought of spending 100’s of dollars or even 1000’s of dollars on an engine that won’t work right and ends up on the shelf or worse yet, EBay is not only confounding, but downright painful. I have encountered this with Aristo-Craft more often then any other make I use. Granted, there are better engines out there with high grade mechanics and electronics, but as near as I can tell, nothing really super modern. So, one can purchase a used Dash 9 manufactured by Aristo-Craft and turn that bad boy into a first rate engine with a few simple electronics alterations and perhaps some upgraded motors. Sure, one might spend more money, but the thing is: You’ll have a first rate engine that looks great, sounds great and runs great.
I loath Chinese stuff period. Oh, I know they mean well and our two economies are so intertwined, but Americans know what the heck we want and how to build this stuff and we need jobs right here in this country. That is what confounds me so much. jmo
Stacy
Yes…buy North American made products…BUT…
Would the North American worker, even think of getting up off his/her arse for less than the minimum wage, and thus give up the NA lifestyle we all enjoy…
There lies the major problem…
Some people might have the income that allows them to avoid such places as Walmart, and may be able to think nothing of purchasing a NA made product, while the majority buys the lowest priced model, because that’s what they can afford…and that’s why China has us by the balls…
Yes, Hartland makes a fine product, but it isn’t the -9 that some/most see as what they want…and for a long while, anyone could buy a super-detailed B’mann 4-4-0 for less than the Hartland model.
Even the major shipping lines of the World…including many that are American owned…including cruise ships are built in China…It wouldn’t even shock me to hear of the American, or what’s left of the Canadian Navy, having the Chinese build their future ships…!!!
Fred Mills, BSc, BS, SD said:
Yes…buy North American made products…BUT…
Would the North American worker, even think of getting up off his/her arse for less than the minimum wage, and thus give up the NA lifestyle we all enjoy…
There lies the major problem…
Some people might have the income that allows them to avoid such places as Walmart, and may be able to think nothing of purchasing a NA made product, while the majority buys the lowest priced model, because that’s what they can afford…and that’s why China has us by the balls…
Yes, Hartland makes a fine product, but it isn’t the -9 that some/most see as what they want…and for a long while, anyone could buy a super-detailed B’mann 4-4-0 for less than the Hartland model.
Hello Fred. I agree with you. There is a sense of laziness to the whole affair that even I find almost contemptuous and even worse, painful. I really love my country and while I do support the idea of American made model railroad equipment, I am forced to agree with you that it is likely not going to happen. I guess we can all agree on that, but it sure would be nice if some company hired Americans and paid them well enough to take an invested interest in that company and they created some really cool affordable model railroading products.
BTW Fred, I also agree that most are not wealthy and just want to have something nice to run and work on. Sad…
Stacy
Fred Mills, BSc, BS, SD said:
Even the major shipping lines of the World…including many that are American owned…including cruise ships are built in China…It wouldn’t even shock me to hear of the American, or what’s left of the Canadian Navy, having the Chinese build their future ships…!!!
Let us all hope it never comes to that. China needs us, but in reality, this one world, one country stuff is really quite depressing. I think , I’ll take my meds now…LOL
:)Stacy
Fred Mills, BSc, BS, SD said:
Yes…buy North American made products…BUT…
Would the North American worker, even think of getting up off his/her arse for less than the minimum wage, and thus give up the NA lifestyle we all enjoy…
There lies the major problem…
Some people might have the income that allows them to avoid such places as Walmart, and may be able to think nothing of purchasing a NA made product, while the majority buys the lowest priced model, because that’s what they can afford…and that’s why China has us by the balls…
Yes, Hartland makes a fine product, but it isn’t the -9 that some/most see as what they want…and for a long while, anyone could buy a super-detailed B’mann 4-4-0 for less than the Hartland model.
Once upon a time LGB produced some product in the USA, I let others fill in the detail. I won’t go there.
BTW Padre, someone somewhere once said “Don’t work hard, work smart”
Most in here, I assume, have bought Stuff made in China. Sure, it is cheaper for the most part and because it is made cheaply, most can afford to fix whatever is wrong. Aristo-Craft is all China and it reflects sadly upon their products as the number of defective items demonstrates. Now, I have quite a few Aristo-Craft products and many are really cool looking and highly detailed. Many can easily be made even more realistic and further, most anything can be modified to perform better. My chief complaint is:
I am tired of cheapness. When I need a new sump pump, I don’t get a cheap one made in China that last a few years. No, I get one made right here in this country that last perhaps a few decades. One that, may be far more expensive, but when the water comes, the pump kicks in and she goes.
I once purchased a brand new Aristo-Craft GP30. Really top notch looking engine. This was before they made some modifications in electronics. Right out of the box, it had some flaws in paint and at least one detail was broken. I believe it was a grab iron. So, I ran the gal and she ran okay for a few times, but I noticed she started flickering. The lights flickered and she started to slow down on one point of my loop. I took her off and placed several other engines and had negative issues with those engines. Two were USA Train engines and the other was that Piko White Pass diesel. All worked perfectly. I checked the track and found negative flaws or issues. So, I placed the Geep back onto the track, viola, she ran okay for a few loops and again, she bucked and flickered. I made a decision to return her right away and exchanged her for another engine altogether. Which, when it arrived had no issues.
The point is: Most people that spend the kind of money we all spend have some basic expectations when ordering or purchasing new items. In reality, the trip from China and sitting in some crate container, then traveling, ironically, by train from the West Coast to the East Coast, then being bounced around by careless idiots in the delivery industry likely caused the issues. I hate wasting time, money and effort. Its like ordering a meal you have been looking forward to all week and you bloody well earned it and when it comes, its cold and tasteless as well as badly prepared. You lose interest real quick. It is what it is…
Um Err. At the risk of being called a pedant, The GP30 was made by USA Trains.
AristoCraft made a GP40.
No one should call you a pendant for that Tony, completely different manufacturer, so that is not a small detail when your post says an Aristo is bad, and your USAT is good, and the “Aristo” turns out to be a USAT…
Although…
Perhaps Stacy meant he had an Aristo GP40… Stacy?
Stacy, you are new here, so don’t take offense, but from reading your many posts in a short time, it appears that you have no layout, but lots of locos? Where do you run these? You seem to have a lot of experience that can only be explained by running a lot, just honestly curious, not to be confrontative.
Greg
I have heard the tales about the problems with the AristoCraft GP-40. I have only ever run across one for battery R/C conversion and it ran just fine. No sign of motors overloading current draw with my 3 amp battery R/C ESC.
Likewise only one GP-30 from USAT. It too ran just fine using my 3 amp ESC.
As far as I know, none of the USAT 4 axle locos have ever overloaded those 3 amp ESC’s.
The bad motor story in the Aristo GP40 is well documented. It seems that all the motors had the flaw, but it does not show up in all locos and not nedessarily right away.
Aristo bought sufficient motors to replace ALL the GP40 motors made, and the replacement motors solved the problem.
If your GP40 develops the problem, you WILL know it. Running the motors in a heavy load, i.e. heating them, usually causes the problem to appear.
Then again, there are many owners that never saw the problem.
Greg
Tony Walsham said:
Um Err. At the risk of being called a pedant, The GP30 was made by USA Trains.
AristoCraft made a GP40.
I stand corrected. I had both and simply got mixed up. Thanks for the correction,Tony 
Greg Elmassian said:
The bad motor story in the Aristo GP40 is well documented. It seems that all the motors had the flaw, but it does not show up in all locos and not nedessarily right away.
Aristo bought sufficient motors to replace ALL the GP40 motors made, and the replacement motors solved the problem.
If your GP40 develops the problem, you WILL know it. Running the motors in a heavy load, i.e. heating them, usually causes the problem to appear.
Then again, there are many owners that never saw the problem.
Greg
Thank you Greg.
I suspect mine had those flawed motors because of the bucking after being run a few loops. She would flicker first, then buck. I did not have that engine long enough to even worry. At the time, I also had a GP30. Which, by mistake in my posting, I confused with the GP40. Anyway, the GP30 ran awesome and never encountered any issues. The GP40 though…Ummmmm! LOL
Twenty-three years ago when I decided to build a model railway, I went to Central Hobbies in Syracuse and bought the following O-Scale items: a William’s boxcar, an Intermountain boxcar kit, a length of two-rail track, and a magazine. While I was there I saw a large scale car on top of one of the shelves. Although I knew nothing about large scale, I was immediately impressed with its size and bulk.
Although I had already bought two O-Scale cars, later that same day I bought my first two pieces of large scale equipment at another store: a Delton C&S boxcar and a flatcar with wire reels. Although both these cars were twice the price of the O-Scale scale ones, the “wow factor” was more important to me at that time.
When I got home and found out the least expensive two-rail O-Scale diesel I could buy was $1,500. That turned me off O-Scale. An entry point price matters! That week I sold my Williams car to a local dealer and gave the Intermountain kit to my brother-in-law who had Lionel stuff. When I showed the dealer my large scale cars, he gave me Fred Mills’ phone number.
After meeting Fred and seeing his railway, he and Stu talked me into buying a $250 Big Hauler set from TrainWorld as it was battery powered and radio controlled. Again and entry price point matters! I had lots of fun running that set and my Delton cars.
When the LGB Mogul was introduced I was interested, but the $1,200 price turned me off.
A few years later when Aristo-Craft offered a standard gauge CNR FA-1/FB-1 set, I sold all my narrow gauge stuff and started over. The price of the equipment from both Aristo-Craft and USA Trains when they started was reasonable. But like most I learned that no model is perfect and most equipment requires some changes to make it reliable. It’s just part of the hobby.
Today of course everything is more expensive, but that does not stop younger people from buying what they want. When I started motorcycling in the mid-60s a mid-sized bike like a Triumph Bonneville was $1,300. Now a mid-sized bike is $13,000, but young people still buy them. Why? Because the see them on the streets every day. Bikes are modern, fast, and cool! Socially acceptable to young people.
Why not model trains? Because it was never part of their culture. Model trains are geeky and only of interest to old farts who either had a Lionel set when they were a kid or lived close to the tracks. I attended model train club meetings for 19 years. When I looked out over the crowd, it was a sea of gray hair and shiny domes. Model railroading is a baby boomers hobby that will probably diminish if not disappear when we pass away. The only hope for the future is the Thomas tots. But they are a long way away from have the excess income to buy expensive toys.
Paul Norton said:
Twenty-three years ago when I decided to build a model railway, I went to The only hope for the future is the Thomas tots. But they are a long way away from have the excess income to buy expensive toys.
Paul, I had somewhat similar experiences, although in my case it was Bachmann Shay about 15 years ago that cconvinced me that, once I had the space, I would go large scale, something that happened a few years later. However, I don’t necessarily agree about the generation between us and the Thomas tots. My son-in-law is a passionate (and both his boys, 7 and 3, are into Thomas) although at present with young kids and a big mortgage he can’t afford to indulge in the way that I do - but he makes up for that both in operating on my (still extant) N scale layout and on the large scale railway. But more than that, he chose to live next to a main interstate rail line, he spends his evening tracking down old lines no longer in service, he goes to the 5 and 7 1/4 inch clubs in the area; in short, he is a fanatic. So I know where my stuff will end up when I pop my clogs. He’ll probably try and persuade my daughter (who is resigned to the behaviour of the male members of her family) to move into our house!
On the more general point of the need for starter sets, it wasn’t for me. I went straight to a Bachmann Indy Mogul and a few wagons, but then I had been studying the net for some time. Why? Because, following Greg, it was cheap!! I also only started off with a small amount of LGB track, because if I found that I hated it and longed to go back to N (I don’t!) I wouldn’t have invested much and a lot of it I could sell. And, years later, I still can’t justify spending megabucks on a loco when I only have a limited budget for the hobby, so the most expensive loco I own is a Piko and that was a present. Most of my motive power started off life as Bachmann big haulers of one form or another, and there has been a lot of scratchbuilding of rolling stock because that’s something I enjoy.
BTW, I once spent nearly $1000 (AUD) on an N Scale loco, and I STILL feel guilty about it! I’m never anywhere near that in large scale.