Large Scale Central

Interesting comments from MTH/Mike Wolf on G scale, LGB, Aristo

General Discussion
#61

Craig Townsend said:

…

I would guess that most of us have moved to large scale from HO, N, and O for a variety of reasons. I can’t tell you why I moved away from HO? I have no answer at the moment.

I had a large 29 x 29ft HOm Swiss narrow gauge layout in my previous life i.e. been there, done that.

We didn’t need a house with a large basement, but we found a house with a nice size garden and since there were/are several LS mfgs producing RhB items it was “Here We Go”.

SWMBO likes gardening and trains, IOW I’m a lucky guy!

#62

I think LGB may have lost the market a little bit, but by far and large, they remain far superior in their product lines. All my modern European rolling stock is LGB. I really cannot say enough great things about their products and I suspect, I am not alone. I have Piko Taurus engines and several Piko passenger cars. These are also really well made and have excellent engineering qualities. Aristocraft, in my opinion, has issues. None the least of which is their inability to cease the moment. Now I cannot say for certain why a company producing such fine engines and rolling stock would need to close their doors, but one thing is certain, the Chinese own the molds and until someone decides to make something, it may be a long time before we see brand new Dash9’s or perhaps an AC6000. Mr. Wolf made some rather interesting observations.

#63

Terry Burr said:

In my opinion MTH is out of touch. Honestly though, I couldn’t sit through the entire video. I do admire Mike for sticking to scale but I think his business could be much larger if he would have jumped in the 1/29th market.

On the other side of the coin what would have happened if Lewis went with 1/32?

mind=blown (just kidding)

Terry

I agree. MTH products are well made and have a functionality that is very good compared to Lionel. If they produced large scale engines, the only problem I see is cost to the customer and who exactly will make them. The Chinese do everything now. Which is so disturbing to me. I look at the quality of the Aristocraft engines versus the Piko engines (made in Germany) and I am at a loss to understand why anyone does business with the Chinese. Obviously, they can produce mass versus quality, but if I am going to lay out any money for a long term planned railroad in large scale, I want the products affordable and of a quality that is on par with or exceeds that of Piko. Personally, I hope MTH does get into this, because as it stands now, where does one go, except Ebay, for a modern eco friendly diesel engine in large scale?

#64

Greg Elmassian said:

…thus price made a very big difference to me, since my goal was to have lots of locos and lots of cars…

What would it be worth to you in terms of added cost to not have to fix the locomotives you run on your railroad before they so much as turn a wheel for you? No doubt it’s gratifying to watch the trains you have run around your garden as you envisioned they would when you first started your journey. Would you accept the premise that the journey would be just as rewarding if it took a bit longer at a slightly greater out-of-pocket expense, but without the non-financial costs associated?

Later,

K

#65

One of the principal reasons that Aristo closed their doors was, from memory, Lewis said that to continue would incur ‘unsustainable debt’ Many know that Lewis was President of Aristo/Polks Hobbies and for the last year or so Emeritus President. However other family members were also part of the company and I am sure that in a contracting and uncertain market, coupled with the fact that Lewis had served his time well in the hobby and was well due for his retirement they thought it time to do other things. Many here are happily retired: should we not wish for others to be as well?

I have over fifty items of Aristo stock and they are, rather like a departed friend, remembered each day especially when I see the yellow boxes.

#66

Craig Townsend said:

David Maynard said:

Craig I have made that “point” many times on many threads. But it doesn’t seam to grow roots. There is an HO locomotive I would like to have that is “on sale” in the $490 range. If I am spending that kind of cash, it will be on large scale.

So if price isn’t a factor (this can be debated) than why have most of us smaller scale guys moved to large scale over the years? Is it the “WOW” factor? The outdoor appeal? I’m not sure how many people on this forum had their first model train experience with large scale, but I’m guessing it’s a small majority. I would guess that most of us have moved to large scale from HO, N, and O for a variety of reasons. I can’t tell you why I moved away from HO? I have no answer at the moment.

There are a lot of reasons but the main I would think is ,Its easier to see and work on large scale trains vs HO. For me it was not having space inside for a train layout that caused me to go into G scale in the garden plus I like the idea of running outdoors using real plants. After a while an indoor layout gets boring and ends up being a dust collector.

When I started I stayed on the cheap side when it came to buying. Now that Im established and I know what I want I can splurge a little more. The current prices of electric trains is part of the reason why I went to live steam. For the price of electric train I can get a nice little steamer. The Accucraft live steam Forney was not that much more then the Bachmann.

I would think 1:32 failed over 1:29 is because we live in a society where bigger is better.

#67

Shawn (napkin builder) Viggiano said:

Craig Townsend said:

David Maynard said:

Craig I have made that “point” many times on many threads. But it doesn’t seam to grow roots. There is an HO locomotive I would like to have that is “on sale” in the $490 range. If I am spending that kind of cash, it will be on large scale.

So if price isn’t a factor (this can be debated) than why have most of us smaller scale guys moved to large scale over the years? Is it the “WOW” factor? The outdoor appeal? I’m not sure how many people on this forum had their first model train experience with large scale, but I’m guessing it’s a small majority. I would guess that most of us have moved to large scale from HO, N, and O for a variety of reasons. I can’t tell you why I moved away from HO? I have no answer at the moment.

There are a lot of reasons but the main I would think is ,Its easier to see and work on large scale trains vs HO. For me it was not having space inside for a train layout that caused me to go into G scale in the garden plus I like the idea of running outdoors using real plants. After a while an indoor layout gets boring and ends up being a dust collector.

When I started I stayed on the cheap side when it came to buying. Now that Im established and I know what I want I can splurge a little more. The current prices of electric trains is part of the reason why I went to live steam. For the price of electric train I can get a nice little steamer. The Accucraft live steam Forney was not that much more then the Bachmann.

I would think 1:32 failed over 1:29 is because we live in a society where bigger is better.

Buy a vacuum, being outdoors has its own perils …

One thing that occured to me is that I am sure the rise of On30 has had a sapping effect on large scale. Modelers who 15 years ago might have chosen a small LS mining or logging layout now can built quite elaborate NG layouts in much smaller areas for the same $ or maybe even alot less than LS. They can also build something now by staying indoors instead of having by necessity to move outside for the larger equipment. This would also help explain to me the recent decline in interest in small equipment in LS. The modelers who would have been the buyers of that stuff have instead moved to On30.

#68

Who is “bobfree” where you took the picture from Vic?

Greg

#69

Greg, random pic from Google Image Search

#70

What would it be worth to me to not fix the locos before running them?

I think you are going down the road of “spend more and get better quality”… well that is NOT always true, I’ve seen VERY FEW locos that did not need a tweak or two out of the box.

And, I did do this evaluation of spending more time fixing/modifying/repairing less expensive locos as opposed to a more expensive “bulletproof” one.

the bottom line was that “breakthrough” items (for me) were worth it… I’ll give concrete examples…

  1. Aristo Stainless steel track vs. H&R stainless… when I started I quickly determined I was only going stainless, brass oxidized overnight where I live. The Aristo was HALF the cost. So I could put up with the occasional bent joiner, misplaced holes in the ends, tight gauge, and lower quality ties. It made a lot of economic sense and 10 years later it still does. I found out how to keep the ties from crumbling and used split jaw joiners, etc.

  2. Aristo and USAT diesels vs. LGB. Again the breakthrough was 1/2 the price. I can justify the modifications and extra maintenance for the 1/2 to 1/3 price discount. Yes, maybe they won’t last as long but the repair parts are much cheaper, and I have many more locos for the same money. Again a good tradeoff for me.

  3. Aristo switches vs any other brand. Aristo wide radius switches and #6 switches have a number of problems, but they are all pretty easily fixable, frogs, wiring, etc. Again 1/2 the price of something quality. My WR switches will allow you to back 50 car train through them now.

I can give a number of examples, but the result is a little work for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost.

Again, if I had just a few locos and a few cars the total difference might not be worth the bother, but with the quantity I have, I’ve made a good decision and am still pleased with it years later.

Kevin, I don’t want to debate you, I know your style and where you are going.

These answers are from my personal perspective, mainline trains, lots of them, lots of pulling power, consists of multiple engines. Your personal perspective is likewise coloring your approach, small layout, few locos, short trains, no consisting, etc.

Neither of us is “right” for EVERYONE… although I maintain that the entire topic, which I started, is about mainline trains… unless you can show me an MTH narrow gauge presence…

The topic is about Mike Wolf’s perspective on the hobby and especially how he perceives the rise and fall of LGB and Aristo.

Greg

Kevin Strong said:

Greg Elmassian said:

…thus price made a very big difference to me, since my goal was to have lots of locos and lots of cars…

What would it be worth to you in terms of added cost to not have to fix the locomotives you run on your railroad before they so much as turn a wheel for you? No doubt it’s gratifying to watch the trains you have run around your garden as you envisioned they would when you first started your journey. Would you accept the premise that the journey would be just as rewarding if it took a bit longer at a slightly greater out-of-pocket expense, but without the non-financial costs associated?

Later,

K

#71

Bear Creek & Marathon Railroad by Bob Freeman

On the lookout!

#72

Vic, that “random” picture was from bob Freeman’s freight shed here… thanks Richard for knowing who is is. The “weeds” picture was apparently taken in May, 2009, and his site has not been updated since 2011, hope his railroad has both fewer weeds and snakes!

Greg

#73

Why I’m glad I went up onto benchwork…

#74

I only saw a LSOL tag, I was more interested in making my point that even outside is not free from its own set of issues. That pic was the best example I found. Hope Bob doesn’t mind me using it.

#75

“…that even outside is not free from its own set of issues…”

Yep !

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips8/indoor_or_outdoor.html

That image from Bob Freeman’s freight shed had me thinking it could ah been a 1:1 “fallen flag”.

doug c

p.s. don’t recall mention of/seeing a red snake before ! Is that normal or sun ‘glare’ or forgot its’ sun block ?

#76

Vic Smith said:

I only saw a LSOL tag, I was more interested in making my point that even outside is not free from its own set of issues. That pic was the best example I found. Hope Bob doesn’t mind me using it.

I guess should have phrased it differently. Yes outdoors can have its issues but for me I enjoy being outside and pulling weeds etc. up. An outdoor layout is always changing. Im not much of an indoor person so for me a larger indoor layout would get old and it would get neglected more. That’s why I really enjoy the micro layouts. It seems you can only go so far with an indoor layout. Outdoors there is always something to do because your fighting with mother nature. .

#77

I’d be very careful fighting mother nature, Shawn…

#78

#79

Greg Elmassian said:

Vic, that “random” picture was from bob Freeman’s freight shed here… thanks Richard for knowing who is is. The “weeds” picture was apparently taken in May, 2009, and his site has not been updated since 2011, hope his railroad has both fewer weeds and snakes!

Greg

Not to pick nits, but the URL to the pic is LagescaleOnline, not LageScaleCentral.

EDIT to add: I’m guilty of not reading the rest of the thread before commenting. I didn’t realize when I posted this that others had also mention LSOL. Sorry!

#80

Craig Townsend said:

David Maynard said:

Craig I have made that “point” many times on many threads. But it doesn’t seam to grow roots. There is an HO locomotive I would like to have that is “on sale” in the $490 range. If I am spending that kind of cash, it will be on large scale.

So if price isn’t a factor (this can be debated) than why have most of us smaller scale guys moved to large scale over the years? Is it the “WOW” factor? The outdoor appeal? I’m not sure how many people on this forum had their first model train experience with large scale, but I’m guessing it’s a small majority. I would guess that most of us have moved to large scale from HO, N, and O for a variety of reasons. I can’t tell you why I moved away from HO? I have no answer at the moment.

Well, I moved outside, because when we bought our house, we bought one without a basement nor spare bedroom. It was within our budget and next to Grandma’s new house. So if I wanted to play trains, I had to do it in the backyard. I like large scale, because I can more easily scratch-build in large scale then I could in N or HO. Especially since I had my Carpel Tunnel Syndrome. Also, as I get older, I find that I can see large scale better then I can HO.