Large Scale Central

Interesting comments from MTH/Mike Wolf on G scale, LGB, Aristo

General Discussion
#101

I’m optimistic about the future of the hobby. When I started in the hobby with my dad in the late 70s and early 80s, the “crowds” at the train shows and conventions were mostly the 55+ crowd, but a healthy dose of 40-somethings like my dad with young children around my age. The “old guys” were sounding the same laments–that the kids my age were only interested in video games and motorcross, had no interest in trains, and the hobby would be dead in 30 years once all of them passed away.

Through my teens, twenties, and thirties, I was pretty much a lone wolf in my age group in the train clubs I belonged to. Yes, most of my friends were off playing video games and riding motorcross (and later, sports, chasing women, etc.–a task I wasn’t ignoring, either, but still found time for trains.) Folks my age then simply had too many other interests (and not the expendable income) for hobbies like trains.

Now in my 40s, with kids of my own, I look around and–all of a sudden–I’m not the lone wolf anymore. There are lots of club members my age with young kids like mine. Where’d they come from? Most hopped off their motorcross bikes and quit playing sports because they’re not as young as they used to be. They’ve got the extra income after 15 - 20 years in a career. They’ve got kids who like Thomas and all the other “kids” trains. They’re folks like me, in whom the seed was planted decades ago, but took a while for circumstances to come together for it to germinate.

Now, when I go to club meetings, displays, etc., the picture is very familiar. Mostly the 55+ crowd with a fair number of 40-somethings with young children, and–not surprisingly–very few 20 - 30-somethings. I’m not sure it’s ever really changed demographically, but our view of it changes as we get older and fall into different age groups.

When I go to train shows or go to the club display at the Colorado RR Museum, I see kids totally captivated by trains. Sure–most of them can identify with Thomas, but he’s hardly the only “train” influence on children these days. I really don’t think it matters one bit that “real” trains aren’t as much a factor in our lives today as they were 60 years ago. They’re still there, and my kids–and others like them–are still attracted to them. It’s going to be the rare few of them who stay active in the hobby through childhood and on into early adulthood. But I see them coming back “into the fold” once life’s circumstances permit.

Later,

K

#102

Gee whizz Kevin. In your 40’s eh??

Making me feel old.

I can remember when I first went to your dads house during a convention and you were only just out of short pants.

Then I saw you on a train at Silverton a year or so later.

Time sure does fly when you are having fun eh?

I think you have that analysis spot on. We lose them in the 20’s and maybe 30’s but get them back later when they slow down to smell the Roses.

#103

Greg Elmassian said:

No one should call you a pendant for that Tony, completely different manufacturer, so that is not a small detail when your post says an Aristo is bad, and your USAT is good, and the “Aristo” turns out to be a USAT…

Although…

Perhaps Stacy meant he had an Aristo GP40… Stacy?

Stacy, you are new here, so don’t take offense, but from reading your many posts in a short time, it appears that you have no layout, but lots of locos? Where do you run these? You seem to have a lot of experience that can only be explained by running a lot, just honestly curious, not to be confrontative.

Greg

No offense taken Greg. I am experimenting right now. I did have an 0 layout on the carpet of my basement, but sold it all to build up my European railroad. Yes, I have a few locomotives for that.
My experience in model railroading is varied. While I am not any sort of an expert, I do have a rudimentary understanding of the hobby. Presently, I have 4 Taurus locomotives and one ICE Train set. I have quite a few LGB European cars. Now I ran this on the carpet of my basement floor for a good long while before I decided to put it all away until I actually begin the process of building it on a permanent
display. I also have a late 70’s, early 80’s era American railroad in G. While no where near as sophisticated as the European trains, it is none the less a fairly nice set to mess around with. That is on the carpet of my basement floor. It comprises an SD40-2 Rio Grande with matching LGB caboose and 7 freight cars in the mix. I wanted to achieve the look of a prototypical small western consist. I also have a Rio Grande F3. Other then those engines, I have one BNSF Dash 9 which I am working on restoring to full operational status. She needs two new motor blocks and a new heavy duty weight set. That engine will be the center piece of my outdoor railroad based upon BNSF’s three rail mainline out west. The European railroad will be indoors. As for the Rio Grande things, that is just something I threw together to keep me busy while I collect everything I need to start the BNSF. I also have a one really nice 0 scale Amtrak set that I got for free. That consist of an F59 Amtrak locomotive by MTH with proto sound and three double decker Superliner passenger cars. The set is real nice and I plan on adding to it as money permits. All my HO stuff is totally gone. Couldn’t deal with the delicacy or smallness of the parts. Other then the above Greg, I have one N scale P43 Amtrak locomotive, which pulls a really nice Kato set of double decker passenger cars. The “El Capitan” set, by Kato, is truly first rate, but I only use that for Christmas now.

So, I do have some trains I run and some that are merely awaiting a more permanent setup. Hope this answers your curiosity.

#104

Kevin I still find myself a bit more of a pessimist hobby-wise these days, reasons being the ever rising prices of G stuff in general and the eroding base of the small equipment I love to model. I got a bit more optimist when the Lil Hauler line came out, then jaded when Bachmann did absolutely nothing to really promote them, that and the truly idiotic boner of mounting the couplers higher than LGB standard so they wouldn’t couple with anything else except the their own Thomas line The bonehead part being not ever bothering to include the same coupler adapters that come standard with every piece of the Thomas line. That’s just plain lazy on their part and showed a serious lack of real planning or marketing on someones part. And now to add insult to injury they are in all likelihood done for, never to be reissued once the current stock is sold off. I met one of the guys behind these and they also were not happy with the way the idiots (my term) at Kader handled these. They completely 100% failed to even begin to think that regular modelers might be interested in them. I am buying up as many of these as I can afford now, I expect them to be gone completely in a year.

Add now AC’s big fizzle and that LGB has pulled a near vanishing act from the US market, taking with them most vestiges of the small equipment that was once the hallmark of large scale but is now being increasingly kicked to the curb in favor of giant sized equipment. I’m not angry at the shift, I saw that as inevitable several years ago when the Dash-9, PA-1, three GG1’s and a slew of Big Boys all hit the G market at the same time, the wind was clearly blowing in that direction even then. Whats making me sad is that at the same time there a definite schism now in the US large scale universe, there’s the 1/20 big steam narrow gauge crowd, and the 1/29 big dismal crowd, both running 20’ diameter half of Rhode Island layouts, then somewhere squeezed in between now, are the 1/22, 1/24, 1/13, guys, and it feels like we are getting a little smaller every day.

Other than HLW there is certainly little or no support from the industry for these scales anymore, they are quickly becoming the realm of second hand buys, or craft builders who like 30 years ago are finding it easier to build our own equipment rather than wait for a non-existent manufacturer to make new offerings. I realize these issues have spill over into the other gauges as well, but at least there is a hope that Bmann or USA might one day, offer something new.

Buy now, don’t sell, unless your selling what you don’t want to buy more what you do want.

#105

Hi Vic Smith:

" Buy now, don’t sell, unless your selling what you don’t want to buy more what you do want. "

Excellent advice.

MTH blew it by not producing 1:29 scale product but it is Mike’s funds to invest as he sees fit to provide him the most likely chance of fiscal success. But in hindsight, Mike was wrong.

Yes, the Little Haulers could have been a great success for Bachmann by providing Bachmann a line of non 1:20.3 product to sell to youngsters as well as to the 1:22.5 and 1:24 adult hobbyists.

The LGB Olamana is in limited production. That level of new product pricing means no future LGB purchases from me.

Norman

#106

Verloren, Der Kreig ist. Wir gewinnen nicht.

At the ECLSTS, this year in York, The majority of the attendees appears to be in the 50+ range. This bodes ill for the hobby. Many of us are of an age that remembers the steam engines and the passenger trains. That is also what most of us likely run. How many here can remember waving at the traincrew of a passing train? How many of you have observed a kid waving at a train today? Lately?

It is a good bet that Aristo made some very puzzling decisions, as to product selection, and paid the price.

The issue of China in the hobby business, can be discussed ad infinitum. I applaud any manufacturer in the USA, but it is increasingly very difficult to criticize any company for throwing in the towel and moving to China. Those of us who have our own businesses can easily attest to this. Try to start a business in plastic injection and/or casting and see what happens.

The G Scale manufacturing business is very much like the steel business of the late 1970’s.

#107

“I still find myself a bit more of a pessimist hobby-wise these days, reasons being the ever rising prices of G stuff in general and the eroding base of the small equipment I love to model.”

Vic, I can empathize with folks with limited space feeling left out by the recent trends towards larger models, but it’s the market that dictates the product. For better or worse, the market has migrated to a more “scale” approach to the hobby, and the smaller stuff has been left in the lurch. At least the manufacturers are still supporting those older lines, even without much “new” stuff. They can at least keep a bead on the demand, and if it increases again, shift production priorities to match.

"The majority of the attendees appears to be in the 50+ range. This bodes ill for the hobby. "

Ed, see my post at the top of this page. The demographic bell curve doesn’t move. It’s just populated by different people as the years progress and we get older. Thirty years from now, it’s still going to be mainly the 50+ crowd in attendance at the shows as it was 30 years ago. The current lack of 20-somethings isn’t a concern, as it’s simply a matter of them having other priorities in life right now.

How many here can remember waving at the traincrew of a passing train? How many of you have observed a kid waving at a train today? Lately?

Plenty! I’ve discovered it to be pretty universal among kids. There are so many pop culture references to trains today–Thomas, Chuggington, Polar Express, countless other kids’ shows, etc. I’ve met kids who have never seen a “real” train, and can recite chapter and verse about what a box car is and what it carries. I’d expect my kids to be able to do so given their environment, but their friends know just as much as they do despite having no other exposure to trains beyond books and TV. The number of 5-year-olds running around train show displays yelling “Train! Train!” has not diminished one bit since I was that 5 year old.

Later,

K

#108

I grew up with both HO (at my grandparents) and G scale (at my parents. I still have all my HO scale trains but no longer run them. my Grandfather is my modeling partner now, and he switched to G scale because he finds it much easier to work with as he gets older than the smaller HO models. I gravitated towards g scale as colorado narrow gauge became my favorite trains, and this was pre blackstone, so any (brass, imported) hon3 models were more expensive than a nice used LGB mogul or even a new Bachmann Annie. With used freight cars readily available for under $100, it was pretty affordable. My grandfather also has the luxury of having way more land than he has house, so it was easy to put the train outside. I’m house shopping right now, and I find it much easier to find a house with enough yard for an outdoor train than enough space inside for an HO scale layout. That being said, I’m 30, and obviously most people in my generation are looking for condos, apartments, villas, and townhomes in urban areas, instead of suburban homes on nice quarter or 1/3 acre lot.

#109

MTH has an ad in the current issue of Garden Railways on page 4.

#110

On another “forum” (with strictly limited membership), there is a post ballyhooing that the availability of new products from MTH this year and specifically the ad in Garden Railways this month "Well that should hush the nay-sayers about MTH getting out of one gauge "

Apparently re-runs of the F7 are promised in March 2014 (2 months ago), the Dash 8’s in July, and VO1000 in October.

Not really sure that promises (that have been broken over and over) will “hush” anyone.

Product on the shelves will do that… how many manufacturers have promised things and they have not appeared?

Oh, the F7’s seem to not be in stock anywhere except old stock of “M&M candy” road name.

Gee, I’m really hushed! :wink:

(I do hope that MTH does keep building stuff, but I oppose imbibing large amounts of Kool Aid)

#111

Our hobby growing? I doubt it.

I’ll side with the yet unchallenged conclusion the 10-30s age group has short delayed gratification, as in use of I-phones, Facebook, Twitter, video games, etc., as they are guaranteed stimulation and time structuring NOW not later. Plus, they favor being entertained by others not entertaining themselves.

Anyone remember piano lessons?

Selah,
Wendell

#112

“I’ll side with the yet unchallenged conclusion the 10-30s age group has short delayed gratification”

I’m not sure that’s changed in many years, though. “They” said the same thing about my generation when I was in my teens and 20s. No, we didn’t have Facebook, etc., but we had computers, video games, Dungeons & Dragons, BMX, etc–all things with “instant gratification” components to them. I’m sure they said the same thing about my parents’ generation.

Now, we’re taking that technology we learned to love as kids and applying it to model trains. We’ve got sound systems that recreate every last little pop and hiss of a locomotive, iPhone control of those locomotives, and I’m certain in very short order, WiFi or some other interactive connectivity which would give us an engineer’s view of our train as it runs around the railroad. I can see in 3 - 5 years’ time an iPad interface where you’ve got a virtual cab on your touch screen–all the switches, levers, knobs, etc., a camera mounted in the cab, and away you go. Heck, you could add some real fun to it, and if you didn’t keep water in your boiler, you run out of steam and the software stops your train. The interactivity is limited only by our imagination.

Look at what 3D printing has to offer. Kids today with their computer skills are going to fall very naturally into that 30 years from now, drawing and printing fabulous models which can populate their railroads once they have spare time to build them. Technology exists so that we can spend the time doing the things we want to do as opposed to the things we need to do.

“Anyone remember piano lessons?”

Interesting parallel. There’s nothing “instant gratification” about learning a musical instrument. Yet there’s no shortage of high school marching band members, kids playing covers in their garages, or top-drawer musical talent in the 10s - 30s age group. (The same can easily be said for sports.) Sure, kids today like things with instant gratification. (Adults do, too!) But they’re also willing to put in the long hours and hard work to develop a skill. There’s a social component of that which plays very heavily. Few teenagers do model trains, but lots of teens play instruments or sports. Teenagers are by nature social creatures, so they’re going to concentrate on activities that have strong social components to them. With music and sports, there’s also the audience that comes into play–that feedback of whether you’re doing a good or bad job. Modeling is something you generally do alone, showing your work to others only at periodic club meeting or other gatherings. A few “attaboys” on the web pales in comparison to bleachers full of fans cheering when you run for a touchdown.

I head to my workshop specifically to escape the frenetic pace of life around me; to get away from people. Until you get to a point in your life where you value that kind of downtime, it’s not going to be a priority.

Later,

K

#113

Shoot, was hoping to keep on topic…

#114

Greg Elmassian said:

Shoot, was hoping to keep on topic…

Thread jacking is required after the third page. Its in the by-laws.

#115

Wendell Hanks said:

Our hobby growing? I doubt it.

I’ll side with the yet unchallenged conclusion the 10-30s age group has short delayed gratification, as in use of I-phones, Facebook, Twitter, video games, etc., as they are guaranteed stimulation and time structuring NOW not later. Plus, they favor being entertained by others not entertaining themselves.

Anyone remember piano lessons?

Selah,
Wendell

Hopefully I don’t start intergenerational war here, but with all due respect, that isn’t going to help get my generation involved in the hobby. Critiquing us isn’t going to make us any more interested in the hobby. Sometimes you have to meet a group where they are at, and even take advantage of the opportunities presented. I post all the videos I take of our railroad on youtube. Using a smartphone, or a tablet, I can show anyone what our layout is like and what this hobby I’m all into is about as long as we have a 3g connection. I’m in several g scale facebook groups, and I find the constant updates, posts, photos, videos, and conversations to be very helpful. That I can keep up with that anywhere using my phone only makes it easier to stay connected with other people in it. If you’re worried about a shrinking number of people who are interested in the hobby, finding new ways to connect with those people all over the world instantly (for free I might add) sounds like an invaluable tool. Conversely, I have found it frustrating to want to do research on a product I was interested in, and find a lack of media featuring said product to help me make a decision (for example, trying to decide on DCC and sound). Technology has so much potential to help this hobby. Look at what modern DCC decoders are capable of. Our layout looks, runs, and sounds better than it ever has before. With my phone or an iPad, my macbook, and iMovie, I can make a near professional looking video featuring our railroad. I love going on youtube and being able to browse and watch some of the fantastic videos. I can’t tell you how nice it would be to be able to run my layout using an iPad. I hope, if it’s not already in development, one of the dcc companies is at work on that app (I think I’ve seen one already featured on the iPhone).

#116

Greg Elmassian said:

Shoot, was hoping to keep on topic…

The triumph of optimism over experience!

#117

Thanks Steve, looks like I “gotta get my mind right”… (cool hand luke)

:wink:

#118

I happen to agree with TJ. There are options out there to enhance the hobby while keeping the Spirit. It just means that open lines of communication have to continue between the older more experienced members and the newer members who want to learn. I haave seen clubs that have taken it upon themselves to go out and involve themselves in their community these are the ones that are growing and thriving and conversely these are also the ones that are embracing newer ideas and equipment to enhance their railroad experience.

MAtt

#119

Yep, sometimes it’s hard to convince the “old salts” though… When I started using DCC outdoors, I got constant lectures on how complex it was, would not work outdoors, too costly, etc.

One time while someone was lecturing me, my neighbor’s 4 year old came to the fence… I handed HER the throttle and briefly explained speed, direction, bell and whistle… she was running in 5 minutes… while the old salt was explaining how complicated DCC was and on and on…

Open your mind to new things and new ways… it will keep you out of the rest home longer…

Greg

#120

well said greg

matt