Large Scale Central

Improving USA F3's on R1 4' Diameter Curves?

Problem Solving
#1

While I realize that F3’s work best with R2 or wider curves, I have a layout (freight yard) where only R1 curves fit. The layout is complete and WILL NOT be changed.

I also have surplus F3A, F3AA and F3ABA (all with Revolutions) that I would like to use as switchers to push/pull freight cars up ramps from the main outside layout.

In the past I’ve used track powered NW-2’s, Duo Switchers & Stainz locos for switchers but the F3’s with their Revolutions offer more power and better control IF I can get them to work well through the R1 curves and switches.

My question is for other owners of USA F3’s…

Has anyone found a good way to get the F3’s to pull up to a dozen freight cars around R1 4’ diameter curves?

The main problem seems to be that the F3’s lack the NW-2’s free swinging couplers.

I might add that my goal would be to be able to couple to the freight cars with either LGB/USA Hook & Loop or Knuckle Couplers.

Thanks,

Jerry

#2

“my goal would be to be able to couple to the freight cars with either LGB/USA Hook & Loop or Knuckle Couplers.”

By this I mean that some of the freight cars have hook & loop couplers while others have knuckle couplers.

It would create additional problems to try to have the same type of couplers on all of the freight cars.

Jerry

#3

The very first layout I built was with 4’ diameter curves, a loop. It had LGB, USAT, Aristo track, just an oval. All brass.

I put my F3’s on it.

I learned.

F3’s not good on R1 curves and definitely 12 cars not good either.

The coupler pivots all over the place on an F3, but you have a body mount coupler. You could put some coupler that has a pivot at the knuckle in addition to the pivot of the coupler shaft itself, like an Aristo coupler.

The USAT knuckles won’t work and they are at a weird height. maybe you could do it with single hook and loops, but even then you are pushing it, and 12 cars too?

In addition it seems you want BOTH types of couplers, a hook and loop and a knuckle.

And you say standardization of couplers is out.

I guess the answer is no, it won’t happen, given all your constraints.

Sorry

Greg

#4

Nothing is impossible until everyone has had a chance to reply and even then it only means that the solution has not yet been discovered.

I know of several ways I will attempt but first I would like to discover someone else who has been successful.

#5

Possible solutions include solutions that have worked with Aristo FA-1’s and FB-1’s.

I expect to find that using LGB hook & loops between the locos (possibly without the diaphragms) will reduce the minimum radius.

Additionally, I expect to find that the flat rear of an F3A or an F3B will accommodate a sharper radius than the round nose of a F3A and here again hook & loops will accommodate sharper curves than knuckle couplers.

Along with this, LGB knuckle couplers (especially the newest versions) will give far better performance and connectability (even with Bachmann & Aristo knuckle couplers) than the USA knuckle couplers.

Lastly, converter shorty (possibly weighted) boxcars such as LGB 4135’s or LGB 4 axle cabooses (I have plenty spares) can be used to convert F3 knuckle or hook & loops to freight car hook & loops or knuckle couplers.

If all else fails other options include removing shoes and perhaps copying EMD and using draw bars between the locos.

It is far too early to even think of failure or giving up. It’s my layout and my trains so I can always rewrite the specifications to suit my needs.

To clarify, I made no reference to R1 loops or ovals. I did mention R1 curves and I regularly pull up to a dozen or more LGB or Aristo or USA or Bachmann freight cars through an assortment of thousands of feet of R1, R2 and R3 curves and straight track. The freight cars are not a concern of mine beyond the first few that might be forced to derail by a factory standard F3 loco with USA factory couplers.

#6

So far this is turning out much easier than I expected.

I started out with a single F3A with an LGB hook and loop coupler on the rear connected to a string of six Bachmann coal hoppers.

The string of six Bachmann hoppers is one of 3 sets each having Bachmann knuckle couplers between them with Bachmann hook and loops at the front and rear.

On the first R1 curve the coupler hook of the F3 forced the trailing hopper truck off the rails.

It was clear to me that it was the spring of the hook and loop coupler that was the main problem.

I’ve then replaced the LGB spring with a much weaker Backmann spring and made sure that the hook of the F3 coupler was on the outside of the hook of the first hopper.

After running the F3A and Bachmann hoppers around the R1 curves of the layout numerous times in various track switch arrangements there was not a single derailment.

I doubt that a single F3A will have sufficient traction to pull a dozen freight cars up the 10% grade of the ramps to the freight yard but a F3AB should. An alternative will be to use 2 or 3 F3A’s each pulling a set of 6 cars just as I do to bring the cars up a 20% grade from the lower freight yard.

Jerry

#7

Just an option:

You could sell a few F-3’s and purchase a couple LGB 6 axle “Alcos”. (WP&Y).

With the hook n loops, they will negotiate r1-s right out of the box and should pull great.

#8

Hi John,

I’ve never owned any USA F3’s and I got 6 of them (all Warbonnets) in a trade with a local dealer. He wanted to get rid of them because he no longer carries any G Gauge and he had some of my O Gauge on consignment that was not selling.

Now that I have them and put Revolutions and sound in them I’ve been looking for something I can use them for.

I have some spare LGB F7AB’s (ABBA’s) but as you probably know the B units are unpowered. Generally I run my LGB stuff indoors where the R1, R2 & R3 track is and I run Aristo and USA (with Revolutions) outside where R3 is the minimum curve.

This is sort of a “make work” project just to see if I can do it.

Today I’ve got the F3AB working in that so far it is pulling the 6 Bachmann hoppers without derailing. To get it to work I replaced the LGB hook & loop springs and also removed the front F3B diaphragm.

It is working but so far I am not satisfied with it.

The Revolutions are the key to this for me. My Aristo locos cannot handle the R1 curves but I only have a single NW-2 and GP-38 with Revolutions in them. Putting Revolutions in USA Cab units is a lot easier for me than into non-cab locos.

Once the rolling stock is indoors The LGB Loco’s and track power can finish the job.

For me, indoors = LGB Loco’s & Track Power or MTS and outdoors = Aristo & a few USA loco’s that Aristo does not make - almost all with Revolutions.

It may not make sense to someone else but it is the switching that I enjoy and with the current heat outside switching indoors is a lot more pleasant.

#9

It looks like I might be going in a different direction with the F3’s.

Since the garage freight yard sidings can only accommodate a maximum of six freight cars each there is not a significant benefit to bringing more than six cars to the yard at a time. Depending on how many freight cars are needed 1, 2, or 3 F3A’s (with 6 cars each) can handle that.

Meanwhile the passenger yard has R-3 turnouts but the sidings are too short to hold 6 coach trains - especially when pulled inside with E-8’s or SD-45’s. The E-8’s or SD-45’s are needed to pull the coaches up a 10% grade ramp to the yard.

It turns out that once the E-8’s have the coaches up the ramp, replacing a long E-8 or SD-45 with an F3A is just short enough to squeeze an extra Heavyweight into a siding. Even RS-3’s, GP-38’s & GP-40’s are a bit too long.

I just wish the F3’s were not Warbonnets. I know Warbonnets ended up in freight service but I hate to see it.

Jerry

#10

If all you are looking to do is switching then I sure would just use the NW2 loco and forget the F3. Put them to use on main line runs like they where intended to do originally. Later RJD

#11

Hi RJ,

While I love my NW-2’s they are not great pullers and USA has never offered traction tired wheels for them. They would never be able to pull the freight cars up the ramps (it would take an NW-2 cow & calf to equal the pull of an F3A with traction tires).

Also, they are a PITA to install Revolutions in them plus their electronics (lighting circuits) have proven to me to be the most incompatible of all my USA locos.

As a result I only have Revolutions in 1 or 2 of them.

I use the NW-2’s mainly to switch using track power but here I want track powered Revolution controlled locos to transition from the main outside layout to the freight & passenger yards inside.

I’ve also found them less compatible with knuckle couplers.

I appreciate the suggestion,

Jerry

#12

I am happy to report that the F3’s are now working as I had hoped they could.

A single F3A can easily pull not just 6 Bachmann Coal Hoppers with Bachmann metal wheels around the freight yard time and time again but it can easily pull 12 of them (perhaps more but 12 is the max I tried).

Still, I would not want to try pulling 12 of the cars up the ramps with a single F3A because I doubt it could plus I suspect it might strip the nylon gears.

The good news is that the F3AB has also been pulling the 12 hoppers around the R1 curves of the freight yard again without any derailments.

For all purposes of this topic the problems have been resolved - but - I would still like to hear from anyone who might have come up with different solutions.

I would also like to add that this works for me for my specific needs but I am not recommending that anyone should do anything to their locos or rolling stock.

Jerry

#13

When I tried to look at properties, it had an extension of “dot ppg”. Read the word dot here as a period. Needs to be jpg maybe?
The other problem I had before is something simple like an unliked space or character in the title. I also make sure I limit the file name to no more than 8 characters.
Lou

#14

[ht tp://www.largescalecentral.com/%3Cimg%20src=‘ht tp://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/jerry_mccolgan/usat/F3-1a.jpg’%3E](http://www.largescalecentral.com/<img%20src=’’%3E)

You’ve got all kinds of code in there that you don’t need…

#15

I did not put any of the code there -LSC did it. I just went to freight shed and did a cut & paste.

Perhaps I don’t know how to use freight shed but c&p worked in the past.

I gave up on the forums a year or two ago (too many attacks both personal and against brands).

My wife broke her leg so I am pretty much restricted in what I can do as she recovers so I figured it is a good time to try LSC again as was suggested to me.

Jerry

#16

You don’t know how to use the freight shed. I figured out your mess and here’s your picture…

(http://www.freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/jerry_mccolgan/usat/F31a.jpg)

#17

Here’s the proper url to your picture…

http://wwwfreightshedslargescalecentral.com/users/jerry_mccolgan/usat/F31a*jpg

note: *=.

#18

Here are the photos:.

Thanks Joe and Andy

PS The rectangular hole to the left of the hoppers in the upper photo is the ramp down to the lower freight yard where the hopper and tank car sidings are.

The trains go out through the window (upper right) to the layout outside.

#19

Jerry McColgan said:
Here is the other photo (when i figure out how to post it). (http://www.freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/jerry_mccolgan/usat/F32a.jpg)Thanks

Jerry, you didn’t replace the * with a period…

#20

Thanks Andy,

I just wanted to show the F3A and F3AB on the layout pulling a dozen hoppers. My first thought was to post a video but if I cannot even get a still photo right I am going to forget any thought of any videos.

Jerry