Large Scale Central

Improving USA F3's on R1 4' Diameter Curves?

Problem Solving
#21

It occurred to me that many if not most of today’s large scalers have little awareness and appreciation for R1 (4 foot diameter) and R2 (5 foot diameter) curves and turnouts. This is fine for those of who have plenty of money and land but it loses sight of the fact that the hobby really got its start in Germany and the UK where few people have large yards and little free indoor space.

I wonder if the hobby is loosing potential new members who give up because they don’t have room for 20’ diameter curves.

By comparison these upper and lower freight & passenger yards are made up of 35 R1 Electric Turnouts and 45 R1 Curves plus straight track. Everything is 100% R1 -not because I would not have used R3 curves & turnouts but because there was only enough space available if I used R1 everything.

The end result was that only locos & rolling stock that can run on R1 curves was purchased for and used on this layout.

Actually I get a lot more action in a much smaller space so I have been very pleased with it.

I would not discourage anyone from going with wider curves I would just not discourage them from using smaller curves if they have serious space limitations to live with.

Jerry

#22

This diagram shows the Garage yards and how they feed to the outside layout.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/jerry_mccolgan/garage/Garage.jpg)

Jerry

#23

Many people buy locomotives before they have layouts. It’s rare it is a small loco, and since LGB no longer dominates the market, very few work well on R1 curves.

So very few people nowadays build their “real” layout with R1.

The trend is towards more realistic operation and looks, so R1 is usually a bad choice starting out.

You have an established “spaghetti” bowl and have to fit to your constraints.

We all get that.

(http://www.elmassian.com/images/stories/track/too_sharp.jpg)

Greg

#24

Jerry, how about finding a USAT 44 ton locomotive?
That would negotiate your curves and pull plenty of cars.
Never could understand why USAT put traction tires on this engine and not on the NW2’s!

#25

As usual my comments are being misinterpreted. I said “I would not discourage anyone from going with wider curves I would just not discourage them from using smaller curves if they have serious space limitations to live with.”

I would NEVER encourage anyone to build a layout with R1 or R2 or even R3 curves unless that was all that could fit in the space they had available. I ALWAYS encourage everyone to decide what it is they wish to accomplish and then, after seeing what others have done, to make up their own minds as to how they wish to proceed.

I go out of my way to avoid encouraging anyone from doing anything other than whatever it is that they wish to accomplish. I prefer to educate folks on possibilities rather than to attempt to make their minds up for them.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/jerry_mccolgan/miscellaneous/curves2.jpg)(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/jerry_mccolgan/miscellaneous/Curves4.jpg)

#26

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/jerry_mccolgan/miscellaneous/curves1.jpg)

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/jerry_mccolgan/miscellaneous/Curves6.jpg)

Most of us got our start with toy trains running around the Christmas tree when we were kids. I suspect the vast majority of large scalers today are actually kids or parents running Big Wheelers around their Christmas trees.

Just because something is talked about a lot on the internet does not make it a fact. In reality it does not concern me one way or another what size layout someone wishes to make.

I have a lot of fun with my “spaghetti” layout and if someone is unimpressed with it I am unimpressed with their unimpressment.

I don’t have a model railroad. I am a grown man who enjoys playing with toy trains on his Plastic, Plywood and Carpet Railroad. I do have a “layout” because that is what a 4,000’ train set with a lot trains is normally referred to.

I could not care less about “realistic operations” and I have yet to see any creditable facts about it representing the future of this hobby. Hobbies by definition are about having fun and if anyone would think to suggest to me anything about how I elect to enjoy this hobby I would remind him that I got kicked off MLS for telling him what I thought about his opinions.

#27

Jerry, thanks for posting the pictures of your layout. It’s nice to see what you are doing with the space you have. Personally I run 8 to 9 foot dia. curves and a whole lot of 1:20.3 too. I get nothing but great reviews from “muggles” and rail-fans alike. It is what I like. I have seen massive ‘point to point’ layouts with mainlines running for hundreds of feet, very cool, but not my thing (still I totally appreciate them!).

There appear to be two groups of people here…Those who post pictures of their own layouts and what they are doing to make it work; Then there are those who post the layouts belonging to others pointing out the ‘flaws’. I’ve seen several recent threads criticizing the work of others, rather disheartening.

Fodder for the anti-small radius crowd…

(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj222/Noble_Dreg/LSC/c2e55732-305d-48ff-85b3-2f6791464176_zps3920de10.jpg)

Edit…Sorry forgot. My upper loop is 4 to 5 foot diameter. Currently re-building part of the trestle destroyed by heavy snow/ice. It is the most complimented part of my railroad!

#28

Vincent D’Agostino said:

Jerry, how about finding a USAT 44 ton locomotive?
That would negotiate your curves and pull plenty of cars.
Never could understand why USAT put traction tires on this engine and not on the NW2’s!

Hi Vincent, The topic (my topic) is becoming confused. It really has nothing to do with R1 or R2 curved layouts. I don’t have any R1 or R2 layouts. Even my bedroom ceiling layout has nothing smaller than R3 8’ diameter curves and turnouts. The topic is about freight & passenger yards (35 R1 turnouts = 30+ R1 sidings) all with trains and or rolling stock that can readily negotiate R1 curves. The 10 R1 curves simply direct the trains to their sidings. My purpose for the topic was to confirm that my F3’s (that were sitting around doing nothing) could be modified to run through the R1 curves. Thanks, Jerry

#29

Jerry McColgan said:

Vincent D’Agostino said:

Jerry, how about finding a USAT 44 ton locomotive?
That would negotiate your curves and pull plenty of cars.
Never could understand why USAT put traction tires on this engine and not on the NW2’s!

Hi Vincent, The topic (my topic) is becoming confused. It really has nothing to do with R1 or R2 curved layouts. I don’t have any R1 or R2 layouts. Even my bedroom ceiling layout has nothing smaller than R3 8’ diameter curves and turnouts. The topic is about freight & passenger yards (35 R1 turnouts = 30+ R1 sidings) all with trains and or rolling stock that can readily negotiate R1 curves. The 10 R1 curves simply direct the trains to their sidings. My purpose for the topic was to confirm that my F3’s (that were sitting around doing nothing) could be modified to run through the R1 curves. Thanks, Jerry

Ah, sorry I was confused. Yes, I wish my 1:20.3 stuff could negotiate R1 switches as well, it would be easier to put in a holding yard outdoors! I have a small yard limited to LGB only for this very reason. Good luck!

#30

Hi Mark,

“There appear to be two groups of people here…Those who post pictures of their own layouts and what they are doing to make it work; Then there are those who post the layouts belonging to others pointing out the ‘flaws’.”

Very well stated. That is what really confuses me about the Internet.

I have never visited a fellow large scaler I did not like and I have never seen a layout I did not enjoy and appreciate. It never made any difference what brand, power source or size. Friends enjoy hanging out with friends and no friend would ever criticize his host’s layout.

Beyond that I have been told more than once that someone who I found to be a real PITA on the Internet was a really nice guy in person.

I prefer to look to forums as coffee shops where similar thinking folks can hang out together and others would simply sit at a different table.

Regards,

Jerry

#31

“I wish my 1:20.3 stuff could negotiate R1 switches as well, it would be easier to put in a holding yard outdoors! I have a small yard limited to LGB only for this very reason. Good luck!”

Sadly I had to give up on Bachmann locos. 1:20.3 was the final straw because I would have to had put a bigger hole in the wall for the trains to exit the house and I doubt my wife’s patience would have stretched that far.

Aster and 1:20.3 represent the two extremes I think I will leave for others to build and hopefully invite me to visit.

Jerry

#32

So, whatever happened with the F3’s on R1 curves?

The thread kind of wandered off…

Greg

#33

The latest use of the Revolution equipped F3’s turned out to be as a Track Cleaning Loco pushing a Rail Broom gondola.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/jerry_mccolgan/usat/F3TCL2.JPG)

Works great.

Since the Revolution works from constant track power (which I keep around 20VDC) and I use a 14.4 volt NiCad battery for the Rail Broom, it makes me think that if I could find a way to limit the voltage to the Rail Broom motor to about 14 VDC I could run the Rail Broom motor from track power and I would not need a battery at all.

Something else to ponder.

Jerry

#34

I tried the same to limit the current, and burned out several voltage regulators.

I just put a big 20 watt resistor up in the air (to keep from softening plastic)

I measured the motor current, and used that and the voltage differential to calculate the resistor value from ohms law.

Greg

p.s. I see you have the typical paint failure found on the noses of the A units…

#35

Greg Elmassian said:

I tried the same to limit the current, and burned out several voltage regulators.

I just put a big 20 watt resistor up in the air (to keep from softening plastic)

I measured the motor current, and used that and the voltage differential to calculate the resistor value from ohms law.

Greg

Attention Ladies and Gentlemen!

Here we have an “engineer” unable to design a simple circuit that would not burn out several voltage regulators and instead offers a high school Ohm’s Law solution that could burn the operator and melt the device it is installed in.

Does anyone wonder why I would FIRE any “engineer” who worked for me and offered such a solution?

Jerry

#36

TWEET!

Everyone go to their corners. Only warning.

#37

I’ve been using the Rail Broom Car for about a week now. I’ve had & used it a lot longer but it has been a year or more since I last used the main outside layout.

I had forgotten how much stuff falls from the trees and I’ve had to run the car daily. It’s the only maintenance I’ve had to do and the F3A with the Revolution has been perfect for the job.

The RBC won’t clean R1 curves (the brush misses part of the rails) and barely gets R3 curves clean but I can park it out of the way on an R3 siding when I am not running it.

Jerry

#38

Jerry McColgan said:

Greg Elmassian said:

I tried the same to limit the current, and burned out several voltage regulators.

I just put a big 20 watt resistor up in the air (to keep from softening plastic)

I measured the motor current, and used that and the voltage differential to calculate the resistor value from ohms law.

Greg

Attention Ladies and Gentlemen!

Here we have an “engineer” unable to design a simple circuit that would not burn out several voltage regulators and instead offers a high school Ohm’s Law solution that could burn the operator and melt the device it is installed in.

Does anyone wonder why I would FIRE any “engineer” who worked for me and offered such a solution?

Jerry

Ah. So. Same MO you used on the Soap Suds site with your buddy clueless moderators. Seems you are trying to pick a fight and appear blameless. Not gonna happen.
The guy that runs this site as a general rule has more cognizant ability than all the moderators on the other site combined.
We’ll see how it pans out for you.
Hope you didn’t give up your Family website…you can always control comments there.
Oh…and I blew up a bunch of regulators once. Sad thing, it was.
Found out they were mis marked and sold as marked.
Happens, without SubSafe Certification.
TOC

#39

(http://www.floridashootersnetwork.com/images/smilies/popcorn.gif)

#40
Jerry McColgan said:
I am happy to report that the F3's are now working as I had hoped...

For all purposes of this topic the problems have been resolved

Jerry