Large Scale Central

Hypothesis: Perfect Manufacturer?

Okay, looking at the two threads going now, I had a thought. This actually has its nucleus from the LGB bankruptcy, prior to the Marklin purchase. When Marklin appeared to not plan on releasing any of the later American stuff, I suggested to Aristo that they should inquire as to the plans for the molds for things like the hopper, tank car, mikado, etc. Obviously a moot point now, but it still set the thought in motion.

What would be the perfect manufacturer? (Keep in mind, I’m modern, standard guage, so some manufacturers won’t be represented here)

From my point of view that would be a combination of the following qualities:

  1. The quality of build/reliability of the original LGB equipment. My #2 Stainz, recieved by a 5yo in 1986, beaten to hell and back, still runs like a swiss watch.

  2. The design quality of USA. Nothing beats USA’s engineering. Their SD70MAC model is the perfect example. Where-as Aristo would have connected the very nose piece to the cab with hot glue, USA engineered a locking-pin mechanism which makes the parts solidly connected, while making repairs/modifications exceptionally easy. Another excellent example is the Intermodal double-stack well cars. If you remember, the single well came out almost fifteen years ago (if not more). I remember falling in love with the pictures & display product at Ridge Road Station. But my first hands-on was the 2001 ECLSTS on NHGRS’s Big Green. We were trying to run a huge train, but had problems with the well cars coming uncoupled. Flipping one over we figured out that we could reinforce the end platform with a single paperclip. At that time, I noticed that the end platforms were connected to the “bucket” proper by a couple of screws. I realized then that USA had engineered the design to be easily upgradable in the future to the articulated version we have now. (In fact, I used that very design feature to create two 3-packs from a single and 5-pack a few years ago.)

  3. The desire of Aristo to connect with their customers, and a drive to move forward. Regardless of your opinion on what they do, you can’t (or at least, I don’t see how you can) say they don’t try to keep their ear on what the customers say. While they may not move as fast as we’d like, when push came to shove, they did try to correct the problems with the steam drivers and the primemover axles. And, while we don’t all agree with their decision to cut out the dealers, it hasn’t completely killed the hobby off like many of us (me included) expected and whined about. Finally, while they stuff isn’t as finely detailed as USA’s, its usually a bit better than the stuff from LGB, but also more robust than USA, which to me, makes it a very little bit better… I prefer LGB’s hoppers over USA’s (centerflow/cylindrical grain type) because the USA ones are a bit fragile for my taste.

  4. MTH’s rapid deployment. While they pushed out fast, probably trying to bring enough 1/32 stuff to market concurrently so that people could convert/startup in 1/32, they didn’t make it. That being said, those molds are our there somewhere, and for the tank cars, boxcars and maybe coal hoppers, they represent a valuable asset: those types of cars came in all sizes, and even though they represent 1/32, mixed with freight from USA, LGB & Aristo, would make modern freights look a lot more realistic. As a locomotive engineer who passes (and is passed by) freight trains, I can tell you that three different size (height) boxcars in a train is only three cars… I’ve seen LOTS of different sizes in one train. Plus, their centipede tenders look awesome behind the Aristo pacific, lol.

  5. Bachman’s metal frame construction and working valve gear. Okay, this one isn’t as important as the other things, but considering their importance to the evolution of the large scale hobby as a whole, I felt obliged to include something. As a new owner, those Connie frames certainly do carry an authenticity that lacks in the Aristo & LGB steamers.

Okay, well you have my thoughts, what say all of ye?

There can be no such animal.

You can’t put 3 customers in a room and get them to agree on any one point :wink:

Ralph

Okay Ralph, so what would your ideal manufacturer be, and why? I already gave you my thoughts.

Made in USA

Stock what they catalog

A large distribution network that isn’t Walthers.

Durable products.

Availability of parts.

Ralph

Makes great stuff and give it away for free…:wink:

It usually boils down to this:

" A man is flying a hot air balloon and realizes he is lost. He reduces height and spots a man down below. He lowers the balloon further and shouts, “Excuse me. Can you help me? I promised my friend I would meet him half an hour ago, but I don’t know where I am.”

The man below says, “Yes, You are in a hot air balloon, hovering approximately 30 feet above this field. You are between 40 and 42 degrees N. Latitude, and between 58 and 60 degrees W. longitude”.

“You must be an engineer,” says the balloonist.

“I am,” replies the man. “How did you know?”

“Well,” says the balloonist, “everything you have told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost.”

The man below says, “You must be a manager.”

“I am,” replies the balloonist, “but how did you know?”

“Well,” says the man below, “you don’t know where you are, or where you are going, You have made a promise which you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem. The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but now it is somehow my fault. Not to mention that fact that you are powered by hot air.”

(Quoted from a post on the AnyRail Forum (track planning), on which managers are in the minority.)

:wink: :slight_smile:

HJ,

That is just too good! I have emailed that to the office for posting.

Dilbertesc…

Bob C.

As to the desire to “connect” to their customers, I do not give Aristo high marks. The real telling is the result, not the intention, or perceived intention.

The drivers on steam locos still slip.

The wheel contour of the steamers is so bad it is impossible to have back to back and wheel gauge meet NMRA specs at the same time (overly thick flanges).

The wiring still sucks, note the entire batch of Dash 9’s this year that had defective wiring in their own socket.

I’d put the newcomer to 1:29 AML at the forefront. I reviewed several of their cars early on, which had several small flaws. Fred Devine contacted me, printed off my review and had me meet with the owner of the company. I explained every flaw, why it was a flaw and what could be done.

ALL of these items were corrected in the next production run. Wow.

This attitude makes me look to AML for rolling stock first. Kadee mounting pads, improved wheel contour, high level of detail like USAT, etc.

Greg

Greg Elmassian said:

I’d put the newcomer to 1:29 AML at the forefront. I reviewed several of their cars early on, which had several small flaws. Fred Devine contacted me, printed off my review and had me meet with the owner of the company. I explained every flaw, why it was a flaw and what could be done.

ALL of these items were corrected in the next production run. Wow.

This attitude makes me look to AML for rolling stock first. Kadee mounting pads, improved wheel contour, high level of detail like USAT, etc.

Greg

And this is exactly why I wish that AML would produce their first diesel locomotive… But would the price point be similar to USAT and Aristo, or would it be much higher? That’s the million dollar question.

Craig

Well, I can’t spread rumors but let’s just say that AML wants to make a diesel also, it would have to have a price point comparable to USAT & Aristo, but it will be a new drivetrain design.

To be realistic, my guess is that it would be slightly higher, since Aristo is fire-saleing locos (or everything) and USAT has not made a new diesel in quite a while.

The cost to develop a brand new motor block will not be cheap, and hopefully it would take what has been learned and make improvements (or at least not repeat the same mistakes ha ha)

Greg

Greg Elmassian said:

Well, I can’t spread rumors but let’s just say that AML wants to make a diesel also, it would have to have a price point comparable to USAT & Aristo, but it will be a new drivetrain design.

To be realistic, my guess is that it would be slightly higher, since Aristo is fire-saleing locos (or everything) and USAT has not made a new diesel in quite a while.

The cost to develop a brand new motor block will not be cheap, and hopefully it would take what has been learned and make improvements (or at least not repeat the same mistakes ha ha)

Greg

As long as I can figure out a way to re-gauge the wheels I’ll be happy. :wink: GP40 or 50 is what I remember reading a while back, but I’m not holding my breath waiting for it.

I’m guessing somewhere in the $300-500 range? Or are you thinking around a grand?

Craig

Accucraft does have the Whitcomb center cab and they also do the 44-tonner for CMP, so they’ve got a 2-axle diesel truck design in place. The Whitcomb is a brass model at $995, the CMP unit sells for $495. Don’t know how much of that cost is the trucks, or if they could be done for less or… but at least they’ve got a place to start already in their design books.

Later,

K

Craig, it’s too early to have a price, but they were advertising a GP60.

It won’t be brass, so what Kevin is talking about won’t relate directly to a GP60 injection molded and with new diesel trucks.

I don’t believe they will “recycle” the existing designs, since a GP60 would be designed for much heavier duty, it needs to be a puller like the Aristo products.

And yes, no stupid tapered axles that cannot be properly gauged, nor wheel profiles that make it impossible anyway.

Greg

It will be interesting to see what/if AML comes up with. A GP60 would be nice addition to the already stable GP fleet by Aristo, and USAT…

But I’m not holding my breath.

Kevin Strong said:

Accucraft does have the Whitcomb center cab and they also do the 44-tonner for CMP, so they’ve got a 2-axle diesel truck design in place. The Whitcomb is a brass model at $995, the CMP unit sells for $495. Don’t know how much of that cost is the trucks, or if they could be done for less or… but at least they’ve got a place to start already in their design books.

Later,

K

Does anyone have the Whitcomb center cab? and if so how does it run?

The reason I ask is that I have the Accucraft Whitcomb diesel switcher and while it is a nice piece it doesn’t run the best.

the track has to be almost perfect for smooth operation, where all my LGB and USAT will run very well on much dirtier track.

So if AML is going to make a attempt into the diesel market I would hope they will also make it so it runs a bit better on dirty track.

The mark of a good, if not perfect manufacturer has been touched on by several here.

Everybody makes mistakes. Happens. ESPECIALLY if the headquarters is in one country and the manufacturing is PRC.

What makes them really good is as Greg said, that they A) listen and B) act.

I do recall someone who worked closely with a given manufacturer…for a long time.

Reviews were specific and could be critical, if problems existed.

Fixes were published for those with products from that issue of goods that had problems that needed overcoming.

Where that manufacturer fell on their arse was when they decided to do everything “in-house”, yet what they really did was join with someone who really didn’t have a clue…yet was in-house.

We ended up with some stuff that was…well, had more problems than anything else produced up to that point, it seems.

When that happens, people who have spend many years working to get the quality up just give up.

They are no longer interested in dealing with that attitudinal deficiency.

LGB didn’t listen. Yes, they made really good stuff, mechanically, but the details were lacking.

I was told there were folks who passed on customer comments about more adherence to scale…specifically length of cars…and were rebuffed.

LGB as a Richter company is no more.

Aristo seems to bridle at suggestions.

USA could…like axle gears…especially when asked if they had any problems show up for warranty…and no…but when asked how many axle gears they sold stand-alone, the answer was “A LOT!”, and the little light clicked on right then.

Axles and gears were placed on the roof of the building for temperature excursions, issue was seen, and they found out the manufacturer had changed one item’s dimensions…I think it was the ID of the gear…and that was corrected.

The funny part of all of this was in the 80’s LGB was the go-to brand for functionality and reliability, but not detail.

Bachmann was the go-to company for detail, but not reliability.

One of the reasons LGB quit selling motor blocks was the warranty returns they were getting…LGB motor blocks stuck into someone else’s superstructure…and it was always an issue with the interface (that direct from the LGBoA General Manager many, many years ago).

LGB stuff allegedly has all the tooling back in Hungary and Germany, yet production seems a bit…non existent.

Bachmann makes stuff, but now at LGB prices.

Aristo seems to have a supply line issue of some sort.

USA seems to be doing well, detail and price wise, and they are reliable.

Next month, all those could change.

We went with Bachmann back in the 80’s for cost and detail reasons, and when reliability proved to be a major issue, fixed them with BBT chassis and drives.

That gives us LGB style reliability, with the detail we wanted.

Now that Bachmann has shot up to LGB style pricing, the only real affordable way to do it is as we did in the past, old Bachmann locos, used or from our own junk boxes with BBT drives.

There is no perfect.

There is the best you can do for a given need, and it changes.

Find a manufacturer who listens and acts.

TOC

Dave,

I believe the issue can be traced back to the mindset of the manufacturer. LGB was and maybe is more so these days a TOYtrain manufacturer. Their product while ultra reliable were simply toys. Bachmann tried to break out of the toy mould with beautiful scale superstructures but alas, their engineering standards/specifications for loco drives did not match the needs of an engineering scale.

I remember my initial purchases of Aristo stainless rail back around ten years ago. This was when Aristo made its first attempt at stainless track production. The quality was attrocious and the company recalled the product and to their credit spent a lot of money improving the extrusion process to get a quality finish. Alas, some product did not get returned and I finished up with two boxes of inferior track. When I asked about the recall and how it was that track not supposed to have entered the market finished up in my possession, the president replied the ‘track surface finish’ provided better traction over smoother finished rail.

I also posted comments about the design of their trackwork on the manufacturer forum and the well known stalwarts on that forum who saw no issue ever with the company’s product tried to have me hounded off the forum. It seems that the designer of Atlas ‘h.o.’ set track also designed Aristo trackwork. The irony is that it was me the company came to when it was decided to improve the design of the switches.

Until a company sees their models as pieces of engineering and designs and specifies them as such, then all we will get are big TOYS. Look to the new line of trains from the owner of the LGB brandname. The trains are designed to run on largescale track but look like they are intended for three year olds. We have a credibility issue as consumers as we are seen as ‘big boys’ playing with toy trains.

Several months ago, Chairman Ting the younger stepped down at Kader, to be replaced with Chairman Ting the elder.

Something is going on there…and someday we’ll know what that was.

I do beleive it was The Younger who approved the Super Socket, now he’s no longer calling the shots.

But prices are increasing.

With the press release, and that avenue temporarily blocked, the ability to do what has been done is interrupted, at least.

It’s all a very strange scenario.

TOC

“Does anyone have the Whitcomb center cab? and if so how does it run?”

There’s a review of it in the latest GR which is favorable. I wasn’t the one who wrote it, so I can only go by what the review says. I’d have loved to take a good look at it since the prototype for it was the inspiration for the center cab I built a long time back and recently re-built with Bachmann’s 45-tonner trucks. (Which, in turned, inspired me to find another 45-tonner to re-build for a center cab of my own railroad.)

@Dave,

Did I read you correctly; you bought Bachmann in the 80s (early 90s) for detail? Over LGB??? Sure, LGB played fast and loose with the scale whereas Bachmann’s models were much more close to the prototype’s proportions at 1:22.5, but the details were clunky and “representative” at best. You remember those 2" scale thick plastic grab irons, right? There wasn’t a piece of Bachmann rolling stock that didn’t get re-detailed and repainted on my railroads. The advantage was that at less than half the price of LGB, it was worth it. Cheap kitbash fodder is what most folks who traveled in my circles considered them (and still do.)

I don’t think there’s a “perfect” manufacturer, because each of us has our own unique needs for what we want to see produced.

Cheap, durable, well-detailed. Pick two of the three.

Later,

K

I confirmed with Accucraft, the design of the Whitcomb will have nothing to do with the development of any new 1:29 diesels.

sigh…

Kevin, the thread is “what attributes” would a perfect manufacturer have, not who is perfect… read thread from beginning?

sigh… (again)…

Greg