Large Scale Central

Hypothesis: Perfect Manufacturer?

Greg, you missed my point. When I write “I don’t think there is a ‘perfect’ manufacturer…” I’m writing to that general scope of the question, not about existing manufacturers. The attributes I would consider “perfect” would likely be quite different from those that you or others might value. Therefore, a universal “gold standard” that has any specificity to it is unattainable.

If you’re going for a pure Utopian, generic answer, I want bulletproof drives, top-drawer customer service, details to the hilt at a reasonable (low) cost. Who wouldn’t? But we’re not living in fantasy-land. If you want a useful, productive dialogue that a manufacturer can read and get some basis of what his customers may value, you’ve got to introduce real-world context, hence my “pick any two” line.

Each of us has our own personal reasons for which of those two we’d choose, and they will very likely change over time. I know mine have. I used to value robustness and low price, figuring I can always add the details I want or beef up the drive if necessary. As time has passed, I find I value a well-detailed, smooth-running model more and more, and don’t mind paying for it. The tediousness of having to add the details just to get a model to level acceptable to my tastes is less and less something I want to bother with. Too many other projects going on. I’d rather have fewer, better models at this stage in my life.

And if you look at probably the one attribute we can agree on–high quality, robust drives–we probably wouldn’t be able to come to any consensus on “how” that is achieved. (Reference Stan’s thread on drives.) LGB’s drives are reputed for quality and durability, but they’re clunky as all get-out. To me, the “perfect” manufacturer has a long catalog of reliable approaches to drives, and picks and chooses which one to use based on the specific needs of the specific locomotive with adherence to prototype appearance being the overarching consideration. Someone else might say that’s too much variation, and they want more consistency between models for simplicity’s sake a la LGB. No doubt that has its merits in terms of engendering a reputation for reliability, but then you have to sacrifice adherence to prototype to one extent or the other, which some modelers may find unacceptable.

But, if you just want my opinion to toss into the cacophony of others, there it is. Take it for what it’s worth–one person’s perspective framed in the context of what that one person’s personal values are at the time the opinion is offered.


As for the Whitcomb and any future Accucraft diesel development, understand I did not make any implication that any future development would use the trucks from that or the 45-tonner, just that they’ve built those models thus at least have a starting point from where to begin the engineering. (I can’t tell from your “sigh” comment whether you understood that or not, so I’m just clarifying just in case.)

Regardless, the components may be completely different, but the engineering principles would likely be the same. The Whitcomb gets high marks in the GR review for slow speed operation. If we’re talking about “perfect” manufacturer attributes, I want a manufacturer to build upon previous successes, not go back to square 1 each and every time.

Later,

K

Kevin Strong said:


As for the Whitcomb and any future Accucraft diesel development, understand I did not make any implication that any future development would use the trucks from that or the 45-tonner, just that they’ve built those models thus at least have a starting point from where to begin the engineering.

The Whitcomb gets high marks in the GR review for slow speed operation. If we’re talking about “perfect” manufacturer attributes, I want a manufacturer to build upon previous successes, not go back to square 1 each and every time.

Later,

K

Is this review in the yet to be released issue? or am I missing it in my issues I have…

Really interested in getting one as I like diesel switchers.

Sorry to jump in on the debate, carry on :slight_smile:

Sorry, yes. The upcoming (July/August) issue.

Later,

K

Kevin- Yes. The early LGB Moguls had pretty large OD piping. And often gold plated. And no front coupler, unless you were link and pin.

The early Bachmann had better piping, if plastic boiler handrails, an easy fix, done a bunch of them.

We were putting Lionel couplers into the nose of Bachmann 4-6-0’s back then…the LGB required a new pilot of brass.

I was always puzzled about the twin vertical levers for throttle on the LGB units.

Yeah, we fixed the LGB to be more presentable, and the Bachmann ones to run better.

Why?

TOC

Well, we certainly did get some discussion. Lets see if we can add to the debate.

Greg, et al, those who are familiar with the whole Aristo primemover axle debacle:

Here is what I am thinking: the primemover system is actually well designed, ASIDE from the wheel/axle interface. If a new read better system for connecting the wheels to the axle could be developed, is there anything inherently wrong with the PM gearbox design? I personally like the idea of each wheel being powered, and supported by ball bearings. Assuming that the wheel/rail interface is the weak link in the drive train, the PM allows for MUCH greater levels of tractive effort through added weight in the locomotive.

That being said, Greg, how much work is needed to make the Aristo OEM wheels meet the specs you are so upset about? Can it be accomplished by simply turning the back of the wheel in a lathe? Not saying that you should do it after buying an engine, just trying to understand whats needed on Aristo’s end to fix the problems?

Jason, the biggest “issue” with Aristo’s wheel profile centers around a larger-than-ideal fillet between flange and tread. When you set the back-to-back spacing of the axle to be within NMRA/G1MRA standards, the loco rides on the fillet as opposed to the “flat” part of the tread. Aristo has re-profiled their wheels to remedy this, at least on paper (silicon?), but to my knowledge, they have not gone into production yet.

Aristo–for all they do design well–is one of those companies that also seemingly (and literally) reinvents the wheel with each new release. Greg’s a better student of all the variations they’ve had over the years than I, but there’s certainly no consistency. Forget model to model, even on the same model things are weird. The wheel profile on the front pilot truck of the 2-8-0 is different from that of the drivers, which is different from that of the tender wheels. With that much variation just in the profile alone, you’re opening yourself up for difficulties during production because there’s no one standard against which to base QC assessments for the person who’s actually assembling the model on the line.

To my thinking, pick a single profile, and use it on everything you make. I honestly don’t know if there’s any one major manufacturer who’s gotten all the way to that point yet, though the degree of variation has diminished from its historic highs.

I’ll leave it to others to discuss the specific mechanics of the “Prime Mover” gearbox and how the wheels attach to the axles–something that apparently changes fairly frequently as well.

Later,

K

I hadn’t realized how drastic the issue with the wheel contour profile was with Aristo’s stuff. It sounds like its amazing that they stuff rides the rails at all.

In actuality, why can’t we just log onto the AAR’s website, cross reference their REAL specs with the mandates from the FRA’s requirement specs and scale the results down to our gauge and establish a standard? Is wheel profile REALLY something that the MFGs have to fight over?

For that matter, do any of the major mass-production companies meet the established specs? Not Accucraft, AML, but LGB, Aristo, USA… the big volume players?

Early on, say SD-45, the wheel spacing was VERY narrow. The issue showed up with folks reporting broken axles…wheels and axles flopping around, loss of gear mesh.

What it was, was the wheels jamming between wing rail and guard rail, and with the huge optional weights, it would rip the three little screws right out of the plastic worm gear.

If you have never had one apart, the axles are like bug thumbtacks. Pointed on the wheel end, flat round plate on the other.

To fix the SD-45 took a minimum of 2.5 hours per truck. It’s called plug and play. Something that folks whose skill levels stop at plugging something in prevents owner repair.

You had to pull the gearboxes out (and once they started soldering the buss bars to the motor, THAT became real fun), measuring and recording each back-to-back before you started, opening each box keeping wheels with each axle end. Making styrene shims of proper thickness, finding new longer screws, putting it all back together again and re-measuring for 1.575".

The iterations over the years, no pads, pads here, pads there, soldered, not soldered…as Kevin learned, flange thickness and fillet design…they were all different.

When the steam engines came out with the cosmetically patented drive, and wheels started moving on the axles, I laughed. ROFLMFAO laughing.

I told folks to mark all 12 wheels on their diseasemals right at the bottom with a felt marker, take the engine out for a couple of loops with a train, and then re-check.

SURPRISE! The wheels were moving on the diseasemals, too, it’s just that there were no siderods to jam up.

Not a good design.

Steam especially needs drivers locked (and quartered…but with all wheel drive, not really important in this case) to the axles.

Newest diseasemals are keyed.

Why they did the diseasemals and not steam first, we’ll never know.

I remember Lewis’s postings on the old, old AC forum when the trucks first came out…no engines yet…“our patented trucks that sip power”.

Yes, the motors draw half the current of USA. Except there are twice as many.

Literally the day the SD-45’s came out, he modified that post to “our patent pending drive”. He knew in the field the current would be virtually the same for a given load.

If you have a steamer with moving drivers, you need to use heat to break the red locktite loose, get the screw out, see if the axle extends past the washer seat recess in the wheel face. If so, pull the wheel, grind and file the end down until it is just below the washer recess.

QC…one guy coring tapers in wheels, one guy milling the taper in the axle end. If it ain’t exactly right, the gauge is too narrow or too wide.

I remember Lewis bragging about having the widest worm gears in the hobby.

Well, duh.

Since the wheels and axles have to move side to side to allow all flanged on tighter curves, you had to have a wide worm gear to keep it all in mesh with the fixed worm.

Idiotic.

TOC

J.D. Gallaway said:

I hadn’t realized how drastic the issue with the wheel contour profile was with Aristo’s stuff. It sounds like its amazing that they stuff rides the rails at all.

In actuality, why can’t we just log onto the AAR’s website, cross reference their REAL specs with the mandates from the FRA’s requirement specs and scale the results down to our gauge and establish a standard? Is wheel profile REALLY something that the MFGs have to fight over?

For that matter, do any of the major mass-production companies meet the established specs? Not Accucraft, AML, but LGB, Aristo, USA… the big volume players?

Jason, :slight_smile: you mean something like standards with tolerances and all that other good stuff?

I model Swiss NG but I change the equipment to Kadee Gauge1 couplers, a lot of the wheelsets on the cars have been changed to Sierra Valley sets, I scratchbuild my own turnouts to NEM standards.

12 years ago, when I had 18 months of LS under my belt, I decided that the LS mfgs would never-ever either follow a standard or admit to it i.e. it was always that “we can’t tell you, it is proprietary information” bullroar. They wouldn’t tell you because as soon as they would the consumer could call their BS and even worse the wishy-washy product reviews would have to change. Imagine using a standard to compare the crud to? Sheesh, we can’t have that!

Hmmm…wow, after reading all this, and the 11 “gnashing of teeth” pages of Bachmann pricing thread, I have to think to myself, ya know maybe I’m actually lucky that I’m poor enough to have never had to deal with all this hubbub. Just thinking how aggravating my large scale experience would be if I had to modify, correct or repair just about every big product from Bachmann or Aristo over the last 10 years. I suspect I would probably be doing On30, but my little Mack’s just keep trundle along uncomplainingly day after day. Guess in a way I’ve been very lucky to be relegated to the scale’s sidewaters where everything is small and simple yet reliable, now whuda thunk dat???

:wink:

Dave I find that it interesting comment about the problem of the axles coming loose due to hitting guard rails . I’ve owned the SD 45 since day one and have never experienced this problem. How was this scenario arrived at? How wide spread of a problem was this? Later RJD

RJ- Those posts were on the old Aristo forum. I recall folks running them here, and on G1MRA speced switches, they jumped straight up when they hit the wing rail/guard rail.

All you had to do was check the back to back of the wheels, the 1.535" check gauge of the switch, and with what, 9 pounds of lead in the belly, what gave out first?

TOC

Dave, Quote: “Newest diseasemals are keyed.”

Dave,

when the prime mover gearboxes and tapered wheel ‘retention’ were introduced many, many years ago, I congratulated the company on the tapered axle design, but warned that in all cases of a tapered Morse retention that a key was required to stop the rotation of the wheel on the axle. I received several personal emails accusing me of singlehandedly trying to bring down the company with my suggestion. I received ‘abuse’ on the manufacturer forum for my audacity in highlighting a problem that apparently did not exist. When reminded to actually read postings, particularly from Greg Elmassian, the company issued a statement advising all owners of the 2-8-2 drive with wheel rotation on the axle problems to return the loco to the company for evaluation.

Of cause no apology was forthcoming, but it seems at least that common sense has prevailed if the wheels are now keyed. It has only taken nearly ten years.

The reason a diesel has been modified firstly is due the side rods on a steam locomotive. The variations in assembly with the keyed axles, the gearing, the gear teeth engagement plus aligning the drive to fit close fitting siderods must be mind boggling. I predict a keyed steam outline drive could be a long way into the future. Which of cause is a pity as it is the steam outline that is critical to prevent wheel locking. On a diesel wheel rotation on an axle is a nuisance but does not lock the drive.

Hi Guys:

Yes TOC nailed the product history of largescale:

"

The funny part of all of this was in the 80’s LGB was the go-to brand for functionality and reliability, but not detail.

Bachmann was the go-to company for detail, but not reliability.

"

I will add:

Then Accucraft came along offering brass locos at Bachmann Spectrum detail level with LGB reliability at approx. the LGB pricing. Highly detailed brass locos at affordable pricing levels.

Now all of this is past history.

The Perfect Manufacturer would be for Bachmann to produce both standard gauge and narrow gauge product at their Spectrum level of detail with the LGB German mfg. mechanical quality and to return to their former reasonable pricing levels.

Norman

Norman, Quote: “Then Accucraft came along offering brass locos at Bachmann Spectrum detail level with LGB reliability at approx. the LGB pricing. Highly detailed brass locos at affordable pricing levels.”

Norman,

are you referring to the 1/24 scale Accucraft produced a long time ago or the current 1/20.3 scale offerings? I was never a fan of Accucraft ‘affordable’ pricing or quality. The choice of 1/24 scale was odd considering that by then manufacturers were moving away from the scale and in reality the only mainstream 1/24 scale items were the ex-Delton and later Aristo ‘Classic’ line. Some say the early USA Trains boxcars were 1/24 scale and the MDC/Roundhouse caboose also the same scale.

I believe the Precision Scale items were also 1/24 scale. Odd that a manufacturer would produce a precision ‘scale’ model for the wrong gauge track.

ZING!

Tim…y’all got any 3’6" gauge there in Oz?

1:24, #1 gauge track, 3’6"…but I digress…

And, yes, how many of us have been blasted by The Great One Himself, the true Gentleman, who cares so much about the hobby and his customers.

The early USA Boxcars (and I have a bunch of them) were dead ringer knockoffs of the LGB cars. Right down to the screws that hold the roof on in the same places.

TOC

Dave,

we have just about every conceivable gauge downunder. 3’6’’ is typically found in Queensland, South Australia and Western Australia.

In fact, Queensland’s narrow gauge holds the record for the heaviest regularly scheduled trains running on narrow gauge track in the world. Queensland concentrated its early pioneering trackwork on the 3’6’ gauge and it continues to this day to be the predominant gauge, with only a small amount of standard gauge connecting its capital city to the states in the south of the country.

As regards the USA Trains boxcars, yes parts are interchangable and the hook/loop coupler parts are indistinguishable from the German brand.

Is it just me ? Or have others noticed that TOC has apparently come out of retirement? Always good to have someone that can perpetuate threads for page after page after page. :slight_smile:

Edit: Although Tim ( I don’t really know you) is certainly carrying his weight !

Nah, nobody noticed. Nothing to see…move along.

TOC

"I was never a fan of Accucraft ‘affordable’ pricing or quality. The choice of 1/24 scale was odd considering that by then manufacturers were moving away from the scale and in reality the only mainstream 1/24 scale items were the ex-Delton and later Aristo ‘Classic’ line. "

At the time Accucraft was starting out, 1:24 was still the “craftsman” scale. Hartford, Precision Scale, Trackside Details… All of them were pretty firmly rooted in 1:24, or so it would seem. If my recollection of history is correct, Accucraft was working with Legend Steam Works to produce a 1:24 4-4-0. (I forget the exact nature of the relationship, whether it was with Accucraft per se, or the individuals who would form Accucraft, or…) Accucraft’s 4-4-0 was essentially an electric version of Legend’s live steam version. They only did a few pieces in 1:24 before the floodgates opened and virutally overnight and 1:20.3 became the new “standard” for narrow gauge.

@Jason–as to wheel standards? That’s a discussion for another time. Suffice to say the standards are out there (G1MRA and NMRA), but the manufacturers are happy with what they’ve got. Some match very well, others, not so much. Accucraft and Bachmann are generally pretty good. LGB varies, as does Aristo. Haven’t had enough USA stuff pass through to see any kind of pattern. The ones that have passed through seem to operate on my railroad okay.

Later,

K