Large Scale Central

Holy Crap. LGB files for German bankruptcy protection-hostile ta

Jerry,

It seems you missed the point!

The point is: it costs the same money to make an item that has the same ratio in length, width and height. It won’t bother the “I don’t care” crowd because they wouldn’t know any better anyway, nor if they do, would they care.
Doing an item to proper, uniform scale just increased your consumer base, because you added the modelers to the “I don’t care” crowd.

If I remember correctly this is about selling as much of the product the consumer wants, to as many of those consumers as possible.

When did the LGB decline start? When the US competitors started to produce the items that the NA consumer recognized as more than just a caricature! Of course it doesn’t help if you have a wacky pricing scheme.

Some of the Europeans are of the opinion that Northamericans are “not that bright” - sometimes they phrase it in an even less charitable way - but all of us Northamericans know how to add 2+2. (Note to Zirner: I am a Canadian citizen)

BTW on that “buy just one and write a review”, :wink: :slight_smile: :smiley: ahhhhhhhhhh … now that is a concept! I wish that would be the case in each and every review. However much more frequent are the instances where the mfg provides a “free of charge” sample of the item to the publisher of whatever magazine and many of those samples are then considered “gifts”. I know of at least one instance where it took repeated attempts and reminders to get the valuable merchandise back. I won’t mention the merchandise, nor the publisher involved.

The results wouldn’t improve if I’d buy five or ten of an item, since I would buy from five or ten different dealers. And if it’s “funky”, then it is “funky”. You probably recall my background in QC, that’s where I learned how to separate the “funky” from the “standard”. :wink:

When I do reviews I buy the item from a regular dealer, it is delivered by regular means and I’m assured that I get “regular off the shelf” merchandise. I wouldn’t want to have it any other way, but I also had a boss many years ago who said: “Bribery starts with that first cigarette you offer a customer” So true, so true… but I know it is also soooooo old-fashioned! :wink: :confused: :wink:

Matthew (OV) said:
You know, it's probably difficult enough to avoid out and out war on a thread about a bad turn of events for a major manufacturer without deliberately stomping on the beehives of scale/gauge, terminology, standards, brand name support, prototypical accuracy, AND steam v diesel, all in one paragraph.

If it was your intent to generate hostility and start skirmishes between as many people as possible in one post you may have done just that.

Doubt it all you like, eventually like your role model you may find yourself feeling rather foolish when confronted inescapably with the truth.


The last thing I wish to do is to generate any hostility about anything. If anything it is my desire to do the opposite.

My point is simply that I don’t understand why some folks get all steamed up about toys/models or whatever you want to call them.

If someone wants to be prototypically accurate and they want manufacturers to cater to them I can understand and respect that. I simply ask for a similar respect for those of us who are unconcerned about such things.

Heck, I buy all of it: steam, diesel, Aristo, Bachmann, LGB, MTH, USA etc.

We ALL contribute to the hobby and the hobby needs and depends on all of our contributions.

As for feeling foolish “when confronted inescapably with the truth” “like your role model” quite frankly that is totally impossible for two reasons:

  1. LGB is not my role model. I am my role model. I would NEVER advocate that LGB make anything to match my preferences because I am fickle. I usually only buy what I consider to be under priced and overvalued. I am the first to say that LGB would be foolish to build anything specifically to please me. I just pick and choose to buy that which appeals to me at a given time.

I had no effect on LGB electing to make toy trains or trains that are R1 compatible. I just lucked out when I discovered that the LGB philosophy seemed to match the needs of my layout.

  1. there is no “inescapable truth.” I am a realist and I will accept and adjust to any “truth” that the current situation evolves to. The simple fact is that my present inventory of LGB (and other) toy trains will easily last me the rest of my life if I could never buy another product from any manufacturer or get any broken product replaced by any manufacturer.

What is there for me to feel foolish over?

I don’t even care if something I say turns out to be 100% wrong. Why should I? I buy and play with my toy trains and if my opinions differ from someone else’s so what?

I never tell anyone else what to buy or what to do with their layout and I ignore what anyone else presumes to tell me to do with mine.

Prove me “wrong” about something (anything) and I will admit it, smile, laugh and forget about it.

It’s wonderful to be retired, not responsible to anyone or for anything and not care what anyone else thinks about anything.

If something I say upsets anyone, I can assure them that I certainly and sincerely never intend to offend anyone and if someone somehow manages to take offense at something I say all I can say is…

OOPS!

Sorry!

Life’s too short to get serious about toy trains. I’m not and if someone else is I have no desire to rain on their parade. On the other hand I love to run my toy trains in the rain.

Cheers,

Jerry

Jerry McColgan said:
1. LGB is not my role model. I am my role model.
I meant St Thomas, famous for doubting as a role model.... not LGB.... though I suppose both exclaimed "Mein Gott," albeit for different reasons, at the critical moment.

Matthew (OV)

Jerry, Let’s give you the benefit of the doubt and leave it at that. You doodle off to moderating the “LGB Club” forum - there must be at least some traffic over there - and we get back to see what’s going on in the rest of the LS world. Mind you a span of 2 years and a few months between posts stretches the benefit considerably. :wink: :slight_smile: :wink: BTW if you, or anyone else, ever had any doubts about German humor, here’s a picture from the “LGB Freunde Much” website. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

No comment! Pretty good spoof and the perfect Christmas present for a few people I can think of. The deluxe version - for those who are “certified” - comes complete with proper blinkers. :wink: :slight_smile: :wink:

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Jerry,

It seems you missed the point!

The point is: it costs the same money to make an item that has the same ratio in length, width and height. It won’t bother the “I don’t care” crowd because they wouldn’t know any better anyway, nor if they do, would they care.
Doing an item to proper, uniform scale just increased your consumer base, because you added the modelers to the “I don’t care” crowd.

If I remember correctly this is about selling as much of the product the consumer wants, to as many of those consumers as possible.


Hi HJ,

Actually I thought the point was “LGB files for German bankruptcy protection.”

Regarding the other point I agree and I disagree.

I frankly don’t know how a manufacturer (especially on in another country) goes about building a mold of a locomotive. I do know that molds are very expensive.

I would agree that it would be desirable for a toy locomotive to be as realistic and accurate as possible and I would expect that a manufacturer would set out with that as an objective.

I can understand that a manufacturer might choose to “adjust the scale” to fit around a R1 curve and I would agree with that choice.

I can also understand that a manufacturer would perhaps elect to drop some details that might result in delicate parts breaking or falling off or that would increase the precision and expense of the mold and I would agree with that choice too.

Then too I can see that once a very expensive mold has been created the manufacture would be very reluctant to come out with a brand new mold when additional profits might be generated from an existing mold and I have no problem with that.

On the other part of the question as for the mold being more accurate I simply have no knowledge of how it is done and why it was not more accurate so I will not venture an opinion.

I simply do not get “involved” until the product hits the dealers’ shelves for me to choose to buy or not to buy. At that stage it is too late for the manufacturer to change their mold so it becomes a go/no go choice for me.

Some manufacturers may (like MTH with their Challengers) improve a 2nd run (usually at a higher cost) which is nice but I usually go for the cheaper 1st run and hope for the best since my trains are not run that much.

I cannot imagine an engineering group having a meeting and saying “we can make the new product accurate or silly and both will cost the same so lets make it look silly and see if anyone is dumb enough to buy it.”

I’m not an engineer or a historian and I have no idea how those decisions are made but I would suspect that every attempt is made to make new products in such a way as to appeal to the greatest number of potential buyers. At the same time I would expect that LGB would not want to ignore their old customers and forfeit all the business from owners of layouts with R1 curves.

Everyone is focused on LGB but perhaps a more realistic point of comparison would be the comparable profitability of their competition. Since we are not privy to the internal finance records of LGB’s competition we have no standard to compare their financial status to.

Beyond that (in my opinion) there is no other manufacturer that comes close to matching LGB in product and service quality and product line so any comparisons would probably be useless anyway.

I think Marvin put it best:

“I’m sure LGB will survive, but to sit here and attempt to speculate what will transpire is a waste of time and energy.”

I hope he proves to be prophetic.

Regards,

Jerry

The definition of a “shill” probably needs to be looked at a little more closely.

One of the identifiers is a refusal to look at, understand or even comprehend data that might just go against your particular understanding.

Another is rabid protective screaming, even contradicting oneself on the same topic.

I am reminded of a comedy seen long ago, where one places their fingers in their ears and shouts continuously “I CAN’T HEAR YOU! I CAN’T HEAR YOU!”

A wise person would look at all the data, and not discount some because it’s a politician, or a court, a reviewer you do not like, or even a manufacturer.

Then, with as much information at hand that they could glean, make an informed decision.

Some of the stuff I see on some forums is high comedy.

To have some sign onto this forum just to create problems where actual, factual translations of what is happening are being presented, in an obvious effort (and failing miserably) to create enough furor that no one will read said information is reprehensible.

TOC

Jerry,

Going by your statement there are plenty of things you don’t know about the model railroad business

OTOH

some of us are in the model railroad business
some of us know how one designs components for model railroads
some of us know how to produce components for model railroads
some of us know what production equipment is beig used (from design to finished product)

I could keep going with the list, but I’m sure you get the picture…

While many of us wear corrective lenses, we make damn sure when we get a new set, that there are no blind spots. Simple reason: we can’t afford that kind of nonsense!

Most prominent feature of an ostrich with his head stuck in the sand? His ass way up in the air!

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Jerry,

Let’s give you the benefit of the doubt and leave it at that. You doodle off to moderating the “LGB Club” forum - there must be at least some traffic over there - and we get back to see what’s going on in the rest of the LS world.
Mind you a span of 2 years and a few months between posts stretches the benefit considerably. :wink: :slight_smile: :wink:


Gee HJ,

Am I being dismissed?

When did Bob appoint you a moderator here on LSC?

Are your opinions important and anyone else’s to be criticized from on high?

You do make a good point though in that the volume of posts does not necessarily reflect the value of the contents.

Actually I came here by invitation for the purpose of reading your translations but as you can tell I was a member of LSC quite a long time before you arrived on the scene.

It is no secret that I am a moderator for the LGB Club Forum but both there and here I speak 100% for myself. LGB pays me nothing and has never told me what to say (I would not do it anyway). Besides, the LGB Moderators (Bob and I) are specifically NOT authorized to speak or represent LGB in any way.

If you wish to imply that my remarks have a LGB spin to them I would counter that all my trains were paid for out of my own pocket and that my layout represents significant investments in products from Aristo, Bachmann, LGB, MTH and USA plus a significant amount of others.

Pick a brand and I’ll be happy to match inventories with you and determine if you or I have done more to support that brand and the hobby.

Someone once accused me of being a LGB shill. My response was (and is) I wish I was and if anyone will tell me where to sign up for free money or free products I’ll be happy to jump to the front of the line.

This year I’ve bought two MTH Challengers, a MTH Hudson and a MTH Big Boy plus about 500 feet of Aristo-Craft stainless steel track. Also several USA NW-2’s, perhaps a half dozen USA Woodsided Cabooses, about 30 Aristo-Craft Heavyweights and a Aristo-Craft Live Steam Mikado.

Add to that about 8 LGB Mikados, half a dozen LGB Moguls, 29 LGB F7’s and quite a bit of other stuff.

By comparison what have YOU bought from ANY manufacturers THIS YEAR and what have YOU done (like volunteering to monitor a manufacturer’s forum) to support and promote large scale?

Or do you just…

talk? :wink: :slight_smile: :wink:

Cheers,

Jerry

p.s. Bob - feel free to delete this if you wish.

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Jerry,

Going by your statement there are plenty of things you don’t know about the model railroad business

OTOH

some of us are in the model railroad business
some of us know how one designs components for model railroads
some of us know how to produce components for model railroads
some of us know what production equipment is beig used (from design to finished product)

I could keep going with the list, but I’m sure you get the picture…


I totally agree.

I never had any desire to learn the model railroad business.

Some of us do all those things and some others like me buy and play with toy trains so they can do their thing such as:

some of us are in the model railroad business
some of us know how one designs components for model railroads
some of us know how to produce components for model railroads
some of us know what production equipment is beig used (from design to finished product)

I forgot to mention that I also bought around 30 Bachmann hoppers this year.

Are we getting personal?

Why?

Jerry

Curmudgeon said:
A wise person would look at all the data, and not discount some because it's a politician, or a court, a reviewer you do not like, or even a manufacturer.

Then, with as much information at hand that they could glean, make an informed decision.

To have some sign onto this forum just to create problems where actual, factual translations of what is happening are being presented, in an obvious effort (and failing miserably) to create enough furor that no one will read said information is reprehensible.


Hi Dave,

There is nothing wrong with presenting data and a wise person would certainly not discount any based on its source but simply determine which is or is not of importance to him/her. Others may find different parts of the same data of greater (or lesser) importance to them.

An informed decision implies action. Sometimes data is information that does not call for any action by some folks and does call for action by other folks.

Reprehensible? That’s a pretty strong word and implies strong feelings.

What may seem reprehensible to someone may seem insignificant to another.

Perhaps failing miserably simply reflects failure to understand that no effort to have attempted something was ever made.

Public forums are just that - public.

It is of no importance to me if someone does or does not read whatever may be printed anywhere about the LGB situation. It is also of no importance to me how someone might react to whatever they read.

I see no doubt to question the accuracy of what has been printed and translated and if someone finds the reading interesting while another finds it amusing and another finds it of major importance that’s pretty much normal for anything that is published.

I only came to this topic at your invitation.

I cannot be expected to read something and then be denied my right to voice my reaction (or lack thereof) to it.

You knew I was pro-LGB and a moderator of the LGB Club Forum when you pointed me to this topic. What did you expect?

Now my reaction is reprehensible? Or was someone else being reprehensible?

That’s life.

Jerry

I’ll make it easy.

If no one addresses anything further to me I’ll post nothing further.

I would have been happy to have dropped off long ago but when addressed courtesy calls for me to reply.

As I’ve been saying all along, I have no opinion on this topic anyway.

Cheers,

Jerry

Jerry McColgan said:
By comparison what have YOU bought from ANY manufacturers THIS YEAR and what have YOU done (like volunteering to monitor a manufacturer’s forum) to support and promote large scale? Or do you just… talk? :wink: :slight_smile: :wink: Cheers, Jerry p.s. Bob - feel free to delete this if you wish.

Now that is truly funny… Someone really missed the boat … But the following is not addressed to Jerry, it is for general information only. (Heaven forbid, we could get a reply to this, too!) OK let’s do this one point at a time Bought this year: 3 engines, at least six cars(didn’t go and count), a few “little” things here and there i.e. track, decoders etc. etc. Wrote, provided the graphics, pictures and whatever else is required for several LS articles (in magazines, no less, in German and English). Finance, run and moderate a specialty forum for RhB - anything from Nm to IIm, but with a large contingent of IIm. Not everyone’s cup of tea, but it wasn’t intended to be! Presently running an installment series of How to bash… for all those “smart cookies” who not only know everything, but know everything better. No, actually that is just to show how I do things with the tools and skills I have. :wink: :slight_smile: Provided plenty of “This is how I do it advice” on the fora - annoys the hell out of some people when they didn’t think of the easy solution first (hi there, Zirner and Co!). Translated “a few” excerpts from the GARTENBAHNprofi, much to the appreciation of some and the utter annoyance of others. That information is available free of charge from our company website in PDF format. The sole purpose is to give those who are interested in what goes on in LS an additional perspective. (That sounds familiar, doesn’t it?) In short, p-l-e-n-t-y and that is just in LS, never mind the other scales! Would one believe I designed several layouts from start to finish complete with different variations just to show people what one can do in different scales within different space restrictions. Themes ranged from really small to nice and large, in both European and Northamerican mode. Free of charge on different fora! And then, just to top it, I ran the “EPL” in circles like so many others do on their layouts. But mostly I just really like to talk! :wink: :slight_smile: :smiley:

You know, Jerry, somehow you think I am addressing you in this.

Odd.

Must be some sort of complex.

But, just to address at least one item, “informed decision”.

What kind of action do you envisage?

To me, when I see enough data and facts, I can make an “informed decision”, doesn’t have to be broadcast or shared, it is just that with the facts available (and without that loud noise of ones mind slamming shut), I can make a decision of how I view anything based upon information.

As a corollary to that, I can, with the entry of new facts or evidence, or even conversations, change that decision based upon new information.

I certainly can’t recall being bothered by the loud noise of my mind slamming shut.

And, I don’t think you’re being “dismissed” by anybody.
Ignored, maybe, but certainly not dismissed.

I seem to remember another great website that was finally sent under when the members were attacked by outsiders for daring to take a more than passing interest, and promotion, of proper scale models in Large Scale.

The phrase “Scale Nazis” from the “invaders” comes to mind.

Sadly that website would not stand up to the “invaders” and succumbed.

Please don’t get baited again.

If some posters here don’t like the translations provided by Hans please feel free to offer your own translations. That is of course if you have language skills to do so.

The LGB shenanigans will all be exposed eventually. That is, if there is anything to expose.

Curmudgeon said:
What kind of action do you envisage?

To me, when I see enough data and facts, I can make an “informed decision”, doesn’t have to be broadcast or shared, it is just that with the facts available (and without that loud noise of ones mind slamming shut), I can make a decision of how I view anything based upon information.

As a corollary to that, I can, with the entry of new facts or evidence, or even conversations, change that decision based upon new information.


Actually you have pretty much outlined my viewpoint rather well.

I have read without challenge all that I have seen regarding the LGB situation.

I don’t deny or affirm any of it and I don’t consider that I know or will ever know the whole story.

Ultimately I keep coming back to the same question (just as you did) of:

“What kind of action do you envisage?”

The answer I keep coming up with is…

Nothing.

What other action option for me is there?

Bachmann locos won’t run around my layout so I stopped buying them.

Aristo locos won’t run around my layout so I stopped buying them but I told Lewis that if he put insulated drivers on his Live Steam Mikado I would buy one. He did so I bought one plus a string of Heavyweights and Bachmann hoppers to pull with it. Actually Aristo FA/B-1’s do run on my layout so I bought 30 of them.

USA NW-2’s and GP-38’s run on my layout so I bought them.

MTH’s Challengers and Big Boy won’t run on my layout but I love Challengers and Big Boys so I bought them anyway (they are parked on shelving on the wall).

My decision was made for me by the other manufacturers. They elected not to make things (mainly steam locos that I like) that run on R1 or R2 curves and not to run in damp or wet environments (as they have every right to do) so you could say that they (and the restrictions of my layout) pushed me into buying more and more LGB products.

The only large scale decisions I make are to buy or not to buy something so the only decisions I anticipate to come out of the current LGB situation are whether I will be buying more LGB products in the future.

There are only two possibilities I can see there:

  1. super attractive prices on LGB products currently stocked be dealers (I’m always a sucker for a bargain)

  2. will the future LGB continue to offer new products with quality, service and prices that appeal to me? It’s way too soon to know this.

I freely admit to being extremely fickle. Even if I strongly disliked a manufacturer I would still not hesitate to buy their products if they made something I wanted at a price I was willing to pay. Further, if I got burned by a manufacturer but they made some sort of reasonable (to me) attempt to make things right I would return (and have returned) to buying their products.

Ultimately it’s all about me. If a manufacturer makes me happy I will buy their products.

There is no “mind slamming shut” there is simply information that impacts my buying decisions and information that is irrelevant to my buying decisions. I think you must have ultra sensitive hearing because I suspect that you are confusing a “loud noise of ones mind slamming shut” with a yawn.

Others are free to do as they please without input from or concern on my part.

Cheers,

Jerry

Really ?

As I’ve been saying all along, I have no opinion on this topic anyway.

Darryl Noble said:
Really ?

As I’ve been saying all along, I have no opinion on this topic anyway.


Hi Darryl,

OK. It was poorly phrased.

Of course I have an opinion but my opinion is simply that the topic (LGB bankruptcy protection) involves a situation that I have no vested interest in and no control over the outcome.

What I was trying to say is that facts are facts and it is up to each of us to determine how (if at all) the facts are of significance to us.

I determined when the situation first started to develop that I am no more than a concerned (because of the significant amount I have spent on LGB and other brands of toy trains) spectator.

If you will do me the courtesy of going back to my initial posts on this topic you will find that the translations had already been published and I made no reference to them either positive or negative. I had no intention or desire to get involved in this topic.

ALL I said was that I thought Ron Wenger had posted a good comment (and remember that Ron has a strong association with LGB’s competitor Aristo-Craft). I respect Ron for speaking out for what I consider to be the good of the industry.

I came to this topic at the suggestion of and following a link sent to me by TOC in a private email. I was drawn into the topic by HJ’s post directed specifically to me.

I have been saying over and over the same thing:

I don’t care. I don’t care. I don’t care.

I have not made any effort to convince anyone else to do anything.

I don’t care. I don’t care. I don’t care.

People keep telling me to read something.

I read whatever that something is and I keep on saying:

I don’t care. I don’t care. I don’t care.

Of course that is a lie (remember I previously said I don’t mind admitting to changing my mind or making mistakes).

The truth is that I really do care.

The difference is that I only care about what I do.

I don’t care what anyone else does, I don’t care what anyone else thinks and I don’t care what someone else thinks that I should do.

Someone likes batteries? Fine. I don’t care.

Someone else likes rivet counting? Fine. I don’t care.

Someone else likes Aristo-Craft, Bachmann, LGB, MTH, USA etc.? Fine. I like them too but I don’t care what someone else likes. I only care about what I like.

Actually I have lied again.

I said I don’t care what anyone else does or says. There is an exception.

Sometimes someone may try to influence a manufacturer (LGB) to throw away their R1 rule. Then I do care and I do respond because just as they have a right to ask LGB to throw away the R1 rule I too have a right to ask LGB to keep the R1 rule.

Come to think of it, I lied again.

Someone may want the manufacturers to give up previous scales and move to a more common scale. It is their right to do so but I personally encourage the manufacturers to keep their present scales.

Why?

Because I don’t want and could not afford a 1:29 Big Boy (OK I would really like to have a 1:29 Big Boy but I cannot buy one for $1,000 so I prefer my MTH Big Boy).

On the other hand I find 1:32 too small for me for anything but huge locos.

I like 1:29 for large mainline locos but I actually prefer the scale LGB has (whatever it is) for their Mikados and F7’s even if it only (best) matches LGB rolling stock. I don’t wish my Mikados and F7’s were smaller - I wish my Heavyweights were bigger but I know that will never happen.

I also like the scale of LGB Moguls and matching rolling stock (1:22.5) better than 1:20.3 narrow gauge because I don’t mind running both my LGB Mikados and LGB Mogul trains on the same track in front of my 1:24 buildings and (1:24?) people.

In other words I tend to use a sliding scale. The smaller the original was the bigger I prefer the toy to be and the bigger the original was the smaller I prefer the toy to be.

Does this put me at odds with some other folks? Of course it does. Does it make me or them right and the other wrong? Of course it does not.

Will I ever convince anyone else? No. I would never even try (other to encourage the manufacturers not to make drastic changes that would not fit my layout).

Will anyone ever convince me to change my mind? Probably not but I’m happy to listen to them if they want to respectfully try to convince me.

It was a lot easier for me to say “As I’ve been saying all along, I have no opinion on this topic anyway.”

I would have been happy to have left it at that. My comments regarding other scales were not an attempt to change the direction of the topic. They were simply in response to other’s comments regarding scale comparisons.

Some of the folks I have the greatest respect for totally disagree with my thinking and I with theirs. We simply accept our differences and enjoy our mutual hobby in very different ways.

Cheers,

Jerry

OK.

I’ll try it again.

If nobody addresses anything further to me I’ll be happy to depart this topic.

Meanwhile it is a beautiful day here in Arkansas so I’m going to get the ski boat out and head to the lake with it.

Cheers,

Jerry

What, you like 47 paragraph long posts?

I have LGB stuff, use it and like it, where it fits.

Some doesn’t.

The only real issue on scale has been well addressed, and you flew right over it.

If you read the translated stuff, carefully, you do se mentions of the scale issue, but maybe it isn’t clear enough.

Who knows.

Anyway, that isn’t the real problem here.

Wait until they get done with what they have to do in Germany and we get a report.