Dave,
As I mentioned very early on in another thread one of the gentleman’s favourite expressions is: “Ich verstehe das nicht” (I don’t understand that).
But we’re aware of that, no need to reinforce the impression. 
Hi,
Thank you very much. Whinegeing Porns and Swiss Fori Washerwomen now teach foreigners
details of Northamerican slang. That´s part of globalisation. As long as dealers and makers know their way around, I´ll sleep well.
Regarding LGB, meanwhile Goldmann & Sons joined the poker round.
Have Fun
Juergen Zirner
Zirner said:
Hi,Thank you very much. Whinegeing Porns and Swiss Fori Washerwomen now teach foreigners
details of Northamerican slang. That´s part of globalisation. As long as dealers and makers know their way around, I´ll sleep well.Regarding LGB, meanwhile Goldmann & Sons joined the poker round.
Have Fun
Juergen Zirner
But presumably not how to spell…
Oops, back to lurking.
Gee,
I go away for a couple of weeks and look what happens. Sue and I just got back from Ireland and saw all of this besides numerous emails on the same subject.
For some time now I have been predicting the fall of one of the bigger Large Scale Manufactures, but this was not the one that was on my mind. So there may be others to follow.
Rest assured that Charlie Ro and Lewis Polk and some of the others are not finding any joy in this situation. The market is that screwed up right now. For most of us old retired farts that have our little salt mine and plenty of salt, well an adqueate supply anyway, things are getting tight as well. I know I have been spedning close to $120 or more than normal on gas for my cars alone. This has cut down on disposable income, and these cost just do not cover getting to the super market, they also come back in the form of higher prices there. Ths same goes for everything we buy the cost have risen.
Sue and I were in Switzerland in April and our cost are nothing compared to what the folks on the Eurpean content are paying. We just spent two weeks in Ireland and things are the same their. They also have been paying higher fuel prices for years because most if it is in taxes. The cost of a liter of gas in Ireland at the lowest cost was 1.13 Euros which translates to around $5.98 for four liters which is just a little over a US gallon.
And before the rumors start I was not in Germany and I did not buy LGB!
All the manufactures are hurting, all have warehouse full of things that are current stock and not moving due to the economy. Manufacturing has to be contracted out 12-18 months and so does production planning. So any cut backs now will be felt in a year and a half. In the mean time they are paying interest on things that are not selling. None of these guys have the deep pockets that everyone thinks they have. If they did they would not be working seven days a week at train shows and in the office to move product. A good estimation is that Lewis and Charlie both put in 90 to 100 hour weeks, same goes for the others.
No doubt that the Lawsuits brought by LGB against several other manufactures and dealers yes thats right dealers, most or many of which they lost, help put them in a bad position. Right or wrong, they gave the impresssion to many that LGB wcould not and could not compete fairly against other competition and they hurt themselves.
Most or many of you have forgotten that Aristo Craft was the first US importer/distribuitor of LGB and that the bad blood that existed for a while between them was a result of sour graps on both side of that deal, not just “trade dress” issues. But as they say that is water under the bridge, neither side of that battle held a grudge as they knew that it could only hurt the hobby and both of them.
The key thing that I have been trying to stress to many Large Scalers is that the brand bashing has to stop! The quality of all the brands has come up 200% or more since the start of this hobby and it has been mainly due to improvements in the manufacturing processes that have been brought about by the manufacutres themselves. All of these guys have made things they would rather folks forgot about including LGB. But they have all worked to keep the prices down until this fuel thing hit and the cost of petro chemicals is directly related back to that.
In fact looking back at the catalogs over the past 10 years prices have actually droped on many items and those that have not have been due to vast improvments made in those products.
What we can all do, is stop bashing brands as it give the new comers the impression that all of the Large Scale items out there for sale are crap.
Take my word for it! I have had the privalge of addressing several Garden Clubs in this area and as far away as 50 miles from where we live on the subject of Garden Railroading and that is the one underlying question that we always get and that is “how do we keep the trains running”. The misconception is there that we are all mechanical whizzes which most of us are not. I have had to repeatedly assure folks that no matter what brand they bought, that all would perform well, the same goes for electronic equipment. As I have told many who asked it all depends on what you want the product to do, and if you have a realistic idea of what you want the product to do. In other words do not expect the products to work under water or clime a 5% grade pulling 20 cars. It has to be realistic.
Taking cheap shots at each other does not help this situation either. God only knows I am a rather large target, but it sends off a negative tone for the new person who comes along and does not realize that a lot of this is done in fun by guys who drink together and torment the hell out of each other in fun.
Just my take on the whole situation. I do not look for LGB to go away, I do look for some of the line to change some and I think your going to see more items comming from them that look more like 1/29 and 1/24 which has been needed for a long time now.
Go out and buy something in large scale, these guys all need the support that we can give them.
Ron
Ronald Wenger said:
............................................Go out and buy something in large scale, these guys all need the support that we can give them.
Ron
Ron,
Some of us are doing that, albeit very selectively. No sense buying equipment that doesn’t fit the theme of one’s railway.
Mostly green RhB 1969 - 75!
Neil Hay said:Zirner said:
Hi,Thank you very much. Whinegeing Porns and Swiss Fori Washerwomen now teach foreigners
details of Northamerican slang. That´s part of globalisation. As long as dealers and makers know their way around, I´ll sleep well.Regarding LGB, meanwhile Goldmann & Sons joined the poker round.
Have Fun
Juergen Zirner
But presumably not how to spell…Oops, back to lurking.
Neil,
Not to worry, Mr. Z’s spelling capabilities are equally suspect in both English and German. 
OTOH some “artists” believe proper spelling is strictly for the “AR” clan.
Bob ,
Just what membership do I have to buy to allow me to totally ignore your request to stop-DING- ?
Mike
Until that sage post by Ronald I think we were heading for a duck photo…
Ron-
Some of us know about the quantity of stock in warehouses.
Some know about the changes in the financial agreements in PRC.
Some of us know about those lawsuits, manufacturer to manufacturer, manufacturer to dealer, and now dealer to manufacturer.
Bashing is one of those things fomented upon us by the adherents to the Joisey bunch.
If you can deflect an honest criticism with screams of “BASHING!”, you can then get away with anything.
Your comments on that forum about the new C-16 now going to be the correct height.
Hmmmm.
So, when we pointed out all those years ago that it wasn’t, that we were “bashing”, and that “expert modelers have looked at it and tell us it’s just right”…ummmm…how does that work out?
It has been a ploy that some think works for a while, but really doesn’t.
Nobody is “bashing” the country or manufacturer or color of the box in question.
When you publish printed facts from the country, or eyewitness accounts, and the shills yell “BASHING!”, exactly how do we get the correct information?
Every time (and I mean EVERY time) I tried to get an issue fixed with a certain company, the blood-curdling yells of “BASHING!” arose from every corner.
I gave up.
Let them have too-narrow-gauge, which causes the too-short screws into the gears to rip out…wheels come loose on axles…never knowing if the tender or engine is miswired, or both.
Helical gears causing an engine to be 1/4" too tall…ya know, straight cut ain’t helical, and that bit was pure BS.
So, just for the record, on your personal sliding scale, where do you have the dividing line set between “bashing” and “facts”?
Ron now I understand why Bachmann only offers a few new items each year, limiting the potential loss if a product bombs, plus with the Vulcan debate they show one significant difference from LGB, that is actually “listening” to what their customers wanted…pulling the Vulcan from development and instead giving us the Goose#1, which I think went over much better, and an 2nd generation Shay with all new improments learned from the first Shay. Next up a three truck Shay and down the line a Plastic K, all of which a significant portion of the large scale community has been clamoring for. Aristo has been equally responsive to the market, the Mallet, the new E-unit, down the line a standard gauge 2-8-0. LGB has of late offered some items that I thought were just plain odd, like the Disney forney “starter” set that was almost a grand? Too much geared towards collectors, too much geared towards deep pocket railroaders, while ignoring the starter market, I thought something was very wrong when LGB dumped their Toytrain line a couple years ago.
I agree that its bad to bash the competition, I never do (with the sole exception of New Bright). I only discuss things I actually use, so no comments from me over Aristos standard gauge stuff cause if I have nothing constructive to offer I’ll keep my pie hole shut. But I have noticed posting elsewhere that seam to delight in bashing one maker or another. I’m not talking about posts that point out an obvious manufacturing problem or cures or issues about troubleshooting, I mean the “I dont like brand X,Y or Z, period!” posts. I hate to say the worst offenders were obvious members of the Red Box Brigade. And your right, they dont help the newbie make an educated choice as to what would work best for them when getting started in the hobby.
Vic,
I have no doubt that all of us have disparaged a product at one time or another, its a natural thing to do, whne one is dissatisfied with a product. However to keep beating it into the ground is another story. I had a go around with an LGB product early on that just about got me out of the hobby, and I got rather vocal about it and it was never rectified to my statisfaction. However since then I have learned a few things about the now defunct dealer that I bought the locomotive in question from and his dealings with others over the simular problems and the fact that he may have been the one that was attempting repairs and responsible for the problems, when all he would have had to have done was return the locomotive for repair.
During that time and as a result of those problems I switched from narrow gauge to a more standard gauge type of rolling stock. However in the past four years I have started to buy some LGB product again as I now run a little bit of everything. I was in the process of planning a second layout for Narrow gauge rolling stock only when my recurrent eye problems struck again and have sidetracked those efforts.
The type of bashing that I am refering to is that done by some individuals who do not even own the product. Earlier this year I heard someone making some comments about a USA Trains product that I knew to be totaly untrue, at the time I was standing with one of Charlies emeploies, who I am sure elected to keep quite out of preference not to become confrontational over the matter. When I spoke up and asked the individual who made the statement how that he knew that the product was flawed he gave two responses. 1. He read it on another fourm, that was not this one or one of those run by a manufacture. 2. A friend also told him. It seems as though there are elemements in this hobby that take a lot of enjoyment out of doing this, to the point where they are quite rabid and vocal about it.
When I asked the individual who was making the comments if he had ever seen one or had his friend seen one or tried one his response was NO of course not the are trash! I then got two of the locomotives/products being bashed out of my train shed and put them on the track and handed him the remote and told him go ahead show us the flaws. He was hard pressed to do so, and got rather flustered, he was essentially trying to impress the crowed with his knowlege of large scale, when in fact he had none and was just repeating what he had heard from someone else who got it in turn from someone else.
This individual has been back to the house here several times since then and has a different outlook on the hobby. He confessed that he thought that his comments would put him in “tight” with the crew that runs here. I reminded him that three of those in the club work or have worked in the hobby and that I own goods and products from all the manufactures, not just one.
Many of us also have a tendacy to forget what goes into making a product and that things will happen and that for one reason or another things will get overlooked in the manufacturing process. The fidelity to scale can not always be adhered to such as the correct size wheels or other things. It takes hundreds of thousands of dollars to field some of the locomotives on the market and often the so called flaws do not occur or become apparent until the item is produced.
All of these manufactures do a lot of things that I do not like, they also do a lot that I do like, and perhaps thankfully there is only so much of what they make that I can afford or I would have it all.
I have been cursed with bad eyesight, and in the past year have started to again suffer from a loss of vision that has been reocuring since 1998. Very shortly I am going to be faced with the fact that I am going to have to go to even larger trains, and like several others will be looking at perhaps something that I can ride on. I know that is not going to break the grandchildrens hearts, but at the same time they are going to be getting one hell of a train set.
I have to have invasive eye surgery again on the 3 of Oct in an attempt to both clear and stabilize what vision that I have left.
In the intrim buy some big trains, anyones big trains. Lets keep this hobby going so that our grand kids can enjoy it too!
Ron
Ron
With regard to product bashing , you are preaching to the converted here . I hope that you do not get the shrill voices of dispute because of who you are as opposed to what you say come tinkling around your ears .
With regard to the eyesight problem .
Nasty business , and many will read about it and shrug and say it doesn’t affect them .
They never seem to consider that others may have difficulties in some form or another , and don’t give a toss anyway . Why should they ?
But I sympathise , my eyesight goes from good to bad with the weather because of Diabetes . A set of spectacles bought one day does not work the next .
Your problem is worse , and I do really wish you well .
Between now and the successful operation that you will have in October , I shall be thinking positive
thoughts for you .
best wishes ,
Mike
Hey Ron - I hope your trip was great - it sounded so…
You have made some statements that do support things I have been hearing. And “buying more largescale” is the only way to assist in the spiral but the real point is getting more people INTO the hobby to buy more large scale because the current list of hobbyists is not big enough - no matter how rosey we all feel about it…
I will not buy anymore LS engines till I sell some…it is not practical. I was a more enthusiastic LS hobbyist when there was actually less to chose from. Now - even though I have drawn the line in the sand about not buying ANY engine that is modeled after the early 1970s - I have too much. After you set up your RR and get a reasonable amount of rolling stock - I mean - how much can you REALLY have…and it takes up a lot of room. And I have allocated my train spending to one LS engine [the “Q” Mallet and an Ogauge Hudson]. I am done for the year so no matter what comes out - no buy…
And that is the crutch. We make more than the market can bear. I know there are too many Mallets, too many SD70s…all you have to do is step in to a store that sells LS and here the phone calls come in from distributors asking the store to “take some more off my hands”…
I really think we have let the tail wag the dog…it would have been better to control releases but the LS manufacturers [just like the Ogauge manufacturers] felt compelled to make every engine that a relatively small sized hobby group wanted…and of course - lets make sure we make the BIGGEST steam and diesel engines which require the biggest layouts to handle. I can run prototypical curves in my yard now but I certainly don’t want to nor pay for all that track. Aristocraft should have bumped up the mainline 2-8-0 versus some of the big diesels [althought the E8 makes total sense as it is a good engine to pull all thos huge USA trains fluted passenger cars].
The bashing thing? Well - I know when something is broke or when it’s not designed right. And this hobby - of all hobbies - really has made the front line consumer the beta tester. Too many times, I might add and its pretty much all across the board… I can name the engines and the manufacturers but we all know who and which…
Ron - you have done a lot to get people to “see” the hobby…ultimately you statement of buying more and promoting more is exactly spot on but the “buying more” needs to happen with a new audience. The LS loyalist/hobbyist is about tapped out…
Best of luck for the 3rd Ron.
Cheers
Ronald Wenger said:
Rest assured that Charlie Ro and Lewis Polk and some of the others are not finding any joy in this situation.All the manufactures are hurting, all have warehouse full of things that are current stock and not moving due to the economy.
The key thing that I have been trying to stress to many Large Scalers is that the brand bashing has to stop! The quality of all the brands has come up 200% or more since the start of this hobby and it has been mainly due to improvements in the manufacturing processes that have been brought about by the manufactures themselves.
What we can all do, is stop bashing brands as it give the new comers the impression that all of the Large Scale items out there for sale are crap.
Take my word for it! I have had the privilege of addressing several Garden Clubs in this area and as far away as 50 miles from where we live on the subject of Garden Railroading and that is the one underlying question that we always get and that is “how do we keep the trains running”. The misconception is there that we are all mechanical whizzes which most of us are not. I have had to repeatedly assure folks that no matter what brand they bought, that all would perform well, the same goes for electronic equipment. As I have told many who asked it all depends on what you want the product to do, and if you have a realistic idea of what you want the product to do. In other words do not expect the products to work under water or clime a 5% grade pulling 20 cars. It has to be realistic.
Go out and buy something in large scale, these guys all need the support that we can give them.
Ron
Hi Ron,
Your posts as usual make a great deal of sense and point out what is really important.
Thanks for posting them and best wishes with your medical problems,
Jerry
Jerry,
I hope you had a chance to read the proper translations (by yours truly) of the various documents. Earlier on I read a post where you mentioned that you hadn’t seen the original texts. Well, some of those texts have been available since Tuesday, I saved a “HTML with images” copy to my HDD as soon as I was told that the “Stuff” is online.
Those post are approximately the same lengths as Ron Wenger’s, not quite as flowery - that is mostly on account of the German texts being a bit more concise.
You must have noted “slight differences” between the original German text and what was provided for “English consumption”, I’m always astonished how people in a modern world expect to pull this off, but yes, they still try.
Amongst friends we refer to it as the “BBB” factor. (Bullsh… Baffles Brains)
More translations to follow as and when deemed “educational”.
I know a lot of folks that have been down sizing, myself included. First to go was the LGB stuff ,except the log cars, as it commanded a fair return of funds spent. Then went all of the Aristo stuff. Never had USAT so that wasn’t on the agenda… A few other minor brands went to a new home. Amazed on the room I have now !! Saw something in On30 and headed that way. A whole lot less in cost and for my the empire I now can build indoors !!!
I’m off to a local train swap meet in the morning and hope to help someone add to their empire.
I have a mini van and it’s just about packed to the rafters er roof. Gawd ! Where did it all come from? And there is more to peddle yet !!
Cheers,
Mike,
I have been a diabetic for Almost 25 years now. I passed a military physical with a wavier for 10 years of that time. Ten years ago it was discovered that my diabetes was not genetic but was in fact caused by Agent Orange Exposure, no family history other than three cousins two of them served in Vietnam and one in Korea the same year they sprayed the DMZ.
All,
As comming from one has bashed and long before I knew what it took to field a product in this hobby I know what you mean. I also know about downsizing this year I got rid of close to 25 lcomotives to make room for some of the new things that are in the works. For sentemental reasonse I hung on to two Bachman locomotives and some passenger cars that I started with, I rebuilt three USAT GP7/9’s and put Aristo Motor blocks under them so that I could double head them with other Aristo Locomotives. I also added 4 pounds of extra weight to each. These Locomotives were way to cool to keep setting in the shed. My track work sucks right now and they needed to be just a shade higher other than that they were good runners. The motor blocks from them went to Bill to use on things he runs under the National Christmas Tree.
Why the down size? Well for one I started updating my computerized inventory (I never did finish) and found out that I had hit the 100 mark with locomotices. Why 100? Hell I don’t know many I buy, some are givien to me by the manufactures others I take in trade for differnt things. It just came out that way.
By doing the train shows, I got to meet so many of the Manufactures and Dealers who make up this hobby that exposed me to all facets of the hobby.
I also know that mail order is killing the Mom and Pops who refuse to get competivitve, and its Killing some who do. I had one at the ECLSTS last year telling me he could not compete, my response to him was I know what it cost and your right you can not compete when your charging more than the MSRP and everyone else is charging 20-30% less than the MSRP. I can not go around and tell them to raise their prices.
Oddly enough he droped his prices and sold out, got more from another dealer and sold it. He left happy.
This is not a war, we are not going to recruit folks into this hobby because of patriotic reasons, or for the Good Ole USA and the Queen or anyone else.
The folks have to have a love for trains to start with. But it is up to us to spread the word, and to also reasure folks that what they buy will run and run for years.
At my last Garden Show talk of the year, I stressed this fact, unless your really mechanical or electrical don’t mess with the locomotives. If your brave and want to get a cheap used one and start there. On more than one ccasion I have had someone bring something to the house here in parts because they got in over there head. And I hate to admit this but a couple of times they got in over mine.
This is one continiouse learning curve and even if I end up some day in the not to far future triping over the Large scale trains to get to the ride on’s, I am still going to have the memories of the fun and the times I had with this hobby and most of the the folks that I met doing the trains and the shows. All I can keep saying is “Damn what a ride”!
Ron
I think it is time to come out of the shadows and say, that as I read all of the posts and replys to them. I think that this is the best time to be a new comer to this wonderful hobby we have. Yes it seems that we are “beta testers” for most of the things we buy, but what a resource we have in the intellect, the wisdom and the ingenuity of all of you who share on the hobby forums. While LGB is going through a rough time, how may people are now being exposed to the hobby and the other manufactures in this hobby with all the talk and Internet press. I think it is time that we all step back and look at where our hobby has taken us and who we took on that ride with us. Now is the time we need to step up and share what a wonderful hobby we have, talk with your neighborers, with your children’s or grand children’s school teachers, find ways to share your love of this hobby with your community and I bet that with more positive info this will an even better hobby.
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Jerry,I hope you had a chance to read the proper translations (by yours truly) of the various documents. Earlier on I read a post where you mentioned that you hadn’t seen the original texts. Well, some of those texts have been available since Tuesday, I saved a “HTML with images” copy to my HDD as soon as I was told that the “Stuff” is online.
Hi HJ,
Yes I have read your translations (I was referred here to see them).
I appreciate having the opportunity to read what has been posted but my reaction to the whole LGB financial and legal scenario is pretty much the same.
LGB has none of my money and my involvement with LGB is pretty well defined by the pleasure I get from playing with my LGB toy trains.
Some folks get upset with the lack of detail and prototypical accuracy of LGB trains. I appreciate their durability and ability to run anywhere so I am unconcerned about the detail and accuracy.
Some folks are apparently upset about whatever is or may be (or may not be) happening with LGB’s financial and legal situation.
My last name is not Richter or Polk or Ro or Wolf so I have no vested interest in the legal and financial dealings of their companies. I certainly have a sincere desire for all of them to prosper and to continue to produce their unique lines of large scale products for me to pick from and run on my layout.
I know that if I owned a family business that was in financial difficulty I would not hesitate to bend (and perhaps break) a few (or a lot of) rules and perhaps laws to protect my business and family savings (I don’t and I never have owned a business so I feel free to say that).
I will not be hypocritical and presume to pass some sort of judgment on what someone else may or may not do with a company their family founded over a hundred years ago.
As for banks that may be owed money by LGB, I’ve yet to meet a financial institution that I would trust not to take my last penny if given a chance thus I am totally unsympathetic toward any such institution. Every bank dumb enough to send me a zero interest credit card is welcomed, bled by me for every bit of free money I can borrow and then paid off and canceled before they can bleed me of a penny’s interest. They would have much preferred to sucker me in, hoping I would extend myself so they could stick me with outrageous charges and interest rates and if lucky enough steal my home from me.
If a non-financial business extended credit to LGB they will have a credit department that has the responsibility to assure payment and any risk will have been balanced against their anticipated profit from any sales to LGB. Why should their transactions be of interest to me, a buyer of toy trains?
Have the banks or other businesses any knowledge, interest or concern for me?
Heck no. I just represent an indirect source of potential profit for them.
Should I worry about knowledge of, interest or concern for them?
Heck no. I just buy the toy trains that have helped them make money.
The whole concept of who did what and what secrets are going to leak out puzzles me because in my mind everyone involved has an agenda that dictates what they will say and how they will react as the situation evolves.
I’d rather play with my toy trains than worry about it.
Cheers,
Jerry