So far, about $13 billion is planned for high speed rail.
Let’s hope they don’t spend $10 billion for studies.
Ralph
My feeling is few Americans want to give up the freedom of movement lost with public transit. Maybe if “we build it they will come”, but then there is the transportation from the Bahnhof to the final destination. Electric personal transport pods?
10 of those billions go to the lawyers and lobbyists.
Tom Ruby said:The airline and automobile lobbyist will again prevent any high speed rail.
10 of those billions go to the lawyers and lobbyists.
most of the US simply doesn’t have population densities high enough to make high speed rail economically viable, and in those areas that do the property is too valuable to purchase for a RoW. (Does anybody really support forcing someone to accept 15c on the dollar for his property, even for the “public good”?)
People also forget that passenger rail in the US in the early 20th century was heavily subsidized by US mail contracts. Once the mail went to trucks there was no reason to run many routes (even at triple the fair). Also, most RR RoWs are private and the RRs pay LOTS of taxes on them as such. OTOH roads and airports are not only NOT taxed, but maintained with public money… until that inequality is fixed, passenger rail service is pretty much a non starter
Dennis Cherry said:The airlines and automakers are broke. As for right of ways......there are abandoned RR right of ways all over the east coast. RalphTom Ruby said:The airline and automobile lobbyist will again prevent any high speed rail.
10 of those billions go to the lawyers and lobbyists.
Ralph Berg said:But few or none suitable for high speed service (ie direct routes with few and gentle curvature, shallow grades, and few or no crossings at grade).... Then you have the great legions of NiMBYs on general principle, the squatters along the RoW who want it to revert to them (for free if possible), the people who don't want anything to spoil their view of their little piece of heaven, the rail to trail nuts who have been salivating for a trail, the confiscatory taxes of the states and every local pollie that smells money from a source that won't vote his sorry butt out, the neo-cons that object to it because it costs public money, or faux-cons who object because it isn't making THEM money -or- THEIR life more convenient, the over the top DEP regs that some nut with a lawyer will exploit to run up your costs till you run out of energy and money because the project MIGHT affect the fuzzy feathered orange spotted cross-eyed minnow, the, need I go on?
As for right of ways......there are abandoned RR right of ways all over the east coast. Ralph
HOW long has the city of Pittsburgh been spending money on the Mag-Lev project already? And it’s STILL no closer to actually being built than it was 15 years ago
Reality bites, but IMO this idea is pretty much like trying to teach a pig to sing.
Ralph,
Most abondoned “right of ways” by contract go back to the property owners on either side of where the tracks were… This means the people on either side now own the “right of way”… Course there are fights by the bike people trying to steal them…
Just wait until gasoline is $4.00 a gallon again. Pigs will sing as well as fly.
Ralph
Bob Burton said:
Ralph,Most abondoned “right of ways” by contract go back to the property owners on either side of where the tracks were… This means the people on either side now own the “right of way”… Course there are fights by the bike people trying to steal them…
Here, most of the right of ways have been turned over to the county governments. Some have been made into trails.
Ralph
Ralph Berg said:"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig." Robert Heinlein
Just wait until gasoline is $4.00 a gallon again. Pigs will sing as well as fly. Ralph
Ralph Berg said:Didn't you hear? The commodities and energy 'experts' are saying gasoline will stay below $2.50/gallon this summer.
Just wait until gasoline is $4.00 a gallon again. Pigs will sing as well as fly. Ralph
Unless, of course, the greedy gits on Wall Street, or the pollies start playing God again, or somebody so much as breaks wind in the middle east…
Doesn’t matter if gas is $4 a gallon, or more. This “high speed rail” stuff is just a huge boondoggle. For local commutes, it’s never going to be “high speed” due to the need for frequent stops. And it still won’t be practical for 99% of the population, because they don’t live and work near rail stations.
The situation where it would make even the slightest amount of sense is between major cities, and then it’s massively more expensive than air travel.
as much as I’d like to see more trains, I have no real use for passenger service, esp with the hope to get out further into the country and away from the city. i could see a minor need for rail from maybe ATL thru Charlotte to WDC, but still doubt it’ll happen.
I’d love to see Steam passenger service up the Saluda Grade by the way of Excursion trains, but that too is prob a pipe dream…
C. Nelson said:
as much as I'd like to see more trains, I have no real use for passenger service, esp with the hope to get out further into the country and away from the city. i could see a minor need for rail from maybe ATL thru Charlotte to WDC, but still doubt it'll happen.I’d love to see Steam passenger service up the Saluda Grade by the way of Excursion trains, but that too is prob a pipe dream…
Atlanta/ Charlotte/ DC is being considered.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/16/obama.rail/index.html?section=cnn_latest
They are talking heavily traveled corridors. For instance, jumping a train from Charlotte to Atlanta…rather than flying.
Not local service.
As for Ray’s assertion that it is massively more expensive than air travel, not true. Just ask the Koreans, Japanese and the rest of Europe. They wouldn’t be doing it, if it was.
The Saluda grade is a pipe dream, Cale. Norfolk Southern has cut the rail at Landrum, but won’t abandon the track or consider letting others use it.
Ralph
Ralph Berg said:They also have MUCH shorter distances, MUCH higher population densities, and much less "independent" (for lack of a better word) cultures both socially and politically. All of which completely change not only the economics, but the entire viability. You are comparing apples to elephants (oranges are still fruit, this is a whole different animal)...
As for Ray's assertion that it is massively more expensive than air travel, not true. Just ask the Koreans, Japanese and the rest of Europe. They wouldn't be doing it, if it was. Ralph
Let me list concrete reasons, against which you can argue your pipe dreams and wishful thinking some more. Remember, changing something on this scale has to not only be “better”, but ‘faster’, ‘cheaper’ and/or "more convenient’ to be considered viable… unless you favor it being legislated (required) and/or VERY heavily subsidized
- Europe and Asia pretty much STAYED rail while we went highway and air in the '50’s So all the needed infrastructure would have to be replaced
- We have longer distances between cities
- We have much lower population densities in most areas
- We subsidize roads and air terminals, yet tax the hell out of rail properties AND expect them to operate self sufficiently.
- Convenience… real big when you’re trying to change habits. ie Can you get Joe Shmoe from Kokamo to his big meeting in New York, Boston, or Atlanta faster and/or easier than driving or flying?
- cost (to passengers, even though SOMEBODY has to actually pay for it)
- You still have to convince legions of people that they actually WANT it to get it built, and enough to actually USE it, consistently, to keep it going.
Rather tall order
Mik said:Ralph Berg said:They also have MUCH shorter distances, MUCH higher population densities, and much less "independent" (for lack of a better word) cultures both socially and politically. All of which completely change not only the economics, but the entire viability. You are comparing apples to elephants (oranges are still fruit, this is a whole different animal)...
As for Ray's assertion that it is massively more expensive than air travel, not true. Just ask the Koreans, Japanese and the rest of Europe. They wouldn't be doing it, if it was. RalphLet me list concrete reasons, against which you can argue your pipe dreams and wishful thinking some more. Remember, changing something on this scale has to not only be “better”, but ‘faster’, ‘cheaper’ and/or "more convenient’ to be considered viable… unless you favor it being legislated (required) and/or VERY heavily subsidized
- Europe and Asia pretty much STAYED rail while we went highway and air in the '50’s So all the needed infrastructure would have to be replaced
- We have longer distances between cities
- We have much lower population densities in most areas
- We subsidize roads and air terminals, yet tax the hell out of rail properties AND expect them to operate self sufficiently.
- Convenience… real big when you’re trying to change habits. ie Can you get Joe Shmoe from Kokamo to his big meeting in New York, Boston, or Atlanta faster and/or easier than driving or flying?
- cost (to passengers, even though SOMEBODY has to actually pay for it)
- You still have to convince legions of people that they actually WANT it to get it built, and enough to actually USE it, consistently, to keep it going.
Rather tall order
Not my pipe dream Mik.
We do subsidize roads…why not rail?
We can’t go on consuming oil the way we are…fact of life. Besides the enviromental damage…we are killing our economy.
You want to see things go to hell instantly…see what happens if the Muslums decide to turn off the oil taps.
We have to start doing things differently…it sure isn’t working the way we are doing it now.
Population density…been to NY, Houston, LA ?
We can keep our head burried in the sand…or we can get off our asses and make some changes.
Ralph
Ralph Berg said:Ah, but is 19th century technology really a 21st century solution? If so, then why not canals? Change for the sake of change, without looking at the big picture and figuring how things fit together is infinitely MORE wasteful in the long run than continuing what we are doing now until a truly better solution emerges.
We can keep our head burried in the sand.........or we can get off our asses and make some changes. Ralph
Of course, we could just outlaw/ limit domestic flights, especially those with less than x number of passengers and redundant routes (thereby creating monopolies with all the unpleasant economic side effects they cause). And we could always tax the hell out of personal vehicles, like they do in some countries you’ve held up as role models. Methinks even the sheep might revolt at that though.
I lived in Texas for 25 years, my history in Texas includes witnessing the “show of strength” in 1941 with the attack on Pearl Harbor. I have spent more than half of my life in Texas.
The reason for the preceding, is to explain the following: After my Father died, some years later my Mother re-married a gentleman named Bob Stubbs. Bob was retired but had been a VP with the Chicago and N’Western RR. Bob and my mother wintered in Texas near my house and went to his home in Illinois.
Dallas had been examining light rail and at that time (mid-seventies) had invested more than 100 million dollars just in studies. No decision had been made.
One night we’re to have dinner with Bob and Mom. I enter and Bob says “come and take a look at this”. Bob had bought site maps of the whole of Dallas City/county.
I looked and saw that Dallas City and County had an actual wheel with spokes from the center of the city outward towards all of the suburban centers.
I announce to Bob “this is the answer”. He said “No, there’s not enough money in it”. The existing right-of-ways were city property, some had rail some did not, regardless the city owned the right-of-way.
I asked Bob, what he meant. He said " there’s not enough money to make this fly because the Politicians need more to play with".
I have never forgotten the lesson I learned that day.
The light rail in Dallas is nice, but I doubt it even pays it’s own way. I left before the rail line was started so I only know that it runs up Central exspressway and don’t believe it serves much of Dallas.
BTW, light rail has started here in Phoenix, it will take 100 years to be a productive product for the city.
Every survey I have ever seen shows our preference for the use of our own cars.
Barry - BBT
What may be a more practical solution to the foundational problem is the continued research with the robotic Personal Transportation Pods. Autonomous human conveyance vehicles, that use self-directing, global positioning information to transport us door-to-door. Not an ancient system where one needs to travel through traffic congestion to arrive at a beehive of activity to board a stinky, filthy, dangerous taxpayer over-funded rail car that only takes us to within a few hundred feet or more of our desired destination.
I believe it is Volvo now that has a RADAR system on-board to detect obstructions and applies the braking system. GPS systems are becoming more pinpoint accurate, and ground-based positioning transmitters are relatively simpler yet.
Our problem here in the USA is the will to implement such systems. Unfortunatly, there are powerful interests that do not want to loose their control.