Never mind the quality. Feel the width.
On that quality question. There is excellent stuff, mediocre stuff and terrible stuff produced in any country. For me the big question is usually: “Will they dare to put that on the market and will people wise up?”
For the guys who have that “stuff” produced it’s a question of “Can we afford that?”. Both in monetary terms and in terms of reputation in the market place.
When it comes to the consumer, welllll from what I read there are people out there who have absolutely no problem with any of the “stuff” - do they have a supply of benevolent pixy dust and sprinkle everything with it? - when other people have problems with the precise same product.
Which could be:
a) spotty quality control.
b) “there is no problem, trust me!”
c) some people are just “too picky” and expect the goods to be as advertised.
You’re partly right about Dell. They (and just about every other manufacturer of PCs) build to a price. I worked at three different shops in New York between late '99 and mid-03; all used Dells. However, only one was silly enough to use Dell’s low-end products. The others used business-grade workstations, and one used Dell servers. We never had any problem with the top-end equipment; the bottom-end stuff (desktops and laptops) was a nightmare.
I defer to your assertions about quality control in model trains. Though that’s not been my personal experience, I’ll go with the say-so of the man who’s done the more miles. From your comments, it looks like there’s plenty of room for improvement in quality control.
Where we disagree is in the cause. I don’t accept, as a generalisation, that “Made in China” = “rubbish”. There’s too much excellent IT equipment on the market originating from the PRC. However, you do get what you pay for.
About thirty years ago, a colleague chose to share a story. He’d been taken POW by the Japanese at Singapore and forced to work on the Burma railway (remember “Bridge Over the River Kwai”?) At one stage, he lost consciousness while working due to sheer exhaustion and malaria. The guards put him on a pyre made up of corpses, but his mates pulled him off just before the guards ignited it - they saw him twitch.
My friend would not buy Japanese - ever. However, one thing he said right at the end of his tale sticks in my mind: “I’ve forgiven them.”
“Forgive and forget?” No - we never forget. As far as forgiving is concerned, my mate’s example speaks for itself.
Okay the original thread title was
Help Save LGB!
I think the last few postings are good enough reason to try.
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LGB is the only manufacturer that still has a North American service facility. They have parts stocked here unlike other manufacturers .
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I’ve purchased LGB items made in China and have had no problems with them. It is a misnomer to lump all Asian production into one stereotyped notion of poor quality. We knocked Japanese production after WWII and look where they are today. What was the #1 selling auto maker in the U.S. this year?
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Keeping the factory in Germany keeps a percentage of production in the west and keeps the locals employed.
As far as “brand name” computers go, I’ve never owned one. I’ve built every computer I’ve ever had. That has allowed me to control the quality of the box and limit the problems I’ve had over the years.
As for my trains, I’ve had very little problems with mine. My original Big Hauler lasted 3 years until a wire broke. By then I had several more locomotives and it became a parts loco. All my USAT locomotives are still running and I’ve only had one Aristo motor block give me problems. I have mixed emotions about “Made in China”. A lot of the negative isn’t quality of their product, but the loss of jobs in America and American pride. Americans should buy American. Let’s keep the jobs and money at home. Overall the country’s economy would be a lot more healthy.
“Americans should buy American”
If that’s the case, you wouldn’t be able to purchase anything.
There are even foreign components in Hartland locos.
Wheat is imported from Chinee to put in our pet foods. Last I looked, the Palouse country was the largest producer of wheat in the US.
Some component in your US auto is imported.
Some guts in your PC are imported.
The gas and oil and lube used in TOC’s Ford is imported.
Grow your own food, spin your own yarn for clothes, and ride a horse back and forth. Then you might be using 100% American. Unless your deodorant has imported chemicals in it.
jb
John, either you missed the point or I wasn’t very clear. I’m very aware of the problems of being able to get “American Made” products. We’ve sold our jobs to the 3rd world. If we brought them back (or at least some of them) then we could buy American. Very little is “Made in America” today and that is a shame to our country and a danger to our economy. China has us by the gonads and eventually will be able to influence our economy, and thus our government. It’s my opinion that America has sold it’s soul to the devil!
John Bouck said:I have always admired the Amish of Pennsylvania. Maybe they know something that we don't.
Grow your own food, spin your own yarn for clothes, and ride a horse back and forth. Then you might be using 100% American.
John Joseph Sauer said:
Okay the original thread title wasHelp Save LGB!
I think the last few postings are good enough reason to try.
LGB is the only manufacturer that still has a North American service facility. They have parts stocked here unlike other manufacturers .
I’ve purchased LGB items made in China and have had no problems with them. It is a misnomer to lump all Asian production into one stereotyped notion of poor quality. We knocked Japanese production after WWII and look where they are today. What was the #1 selling auto maker in the U.S. this year?
Keeping the factory in Germany keeps a percentage of production in the west and keeps the locals employed.
Yes and that’s appreciated by those who need the service.
I have a few LGB items made in China and there are problems. As just one example the wheels are just not up to standards. But that doesn’t bother me, I change to metal wheels in any case; but it sure makes me wonder what gives if a basic item like wheelsets are a problem. Plenty of other instances, just read the reviews (some of those are by me ) and read the posts in the fora from people who experienced these problems first hand.
Not only was Schöntag planning to keep the employees on the payroll, he was also planning on re-patriating the Chinese production back to Germany.
It is possible that one day we’ll know who Schöntag’s “friends and backers” were supposed to be. The goings-on at the Nürnberg Fair could be an indication.
What is Viable?
I know what is not-viable = to make a great product, overprice it, and sell it at a loss!
Much of LGB production is of European prototypes and sell well in Europe or to modelers of European rail.
Currently, irregardless of the nay sayers, the U.S. is in an industrial boom cycle, 4.4 unemployment rate, lots of money for hobbies.
American models by other companies sell well. Are LGB models too big a scale? (1/22 1/24 vs 1/29 1/32)…Are they over priced?..Depends on who you talk to about this subject…and their preferences.
Truthfully, the changes needed to rebuild LGB will not be a happy time for Nurnberg or the employees.
In the past the quality of German LGB has been flawless, all makes from the far east, including LGB, have had problems.
After this subject it batted back and forth by endless armchair commando commentators, who have no financial interest of any shape, kind or form in the outcome pro or con…It comes down to one point…In 200 years who will care?
Dave Healy said:That's right. Forgive them, but if you forget, you are bound to repeat history.
"Forgive and forget?" No - we never forget. As far as forgiving is concerned, my mate's example speaks for itself.
Oh, and out of deference to the legal morons who sometimes lurk on these forums, I only posted a couple of the items out of more than you would believe, with no reference to any manufacturer.
The Lone Railroader said:
What is Viable?I know what is not-viable = to make a great product, overprice it, and sell it at a loss!
Much of LGB production is of European prototypes and sell well in Europe or to modelers of European rail.
Currently, irregardless of the nay sayers, the U.S. is in an industrial boom cycle, 4.4 unemployment rate, lots of money for hobbies.
American models by other companies sell well. Are LGB models too big a scale? (1/22 1/24 vs 1/29 1/32)…Are they over priced?..Depends on who you talk to about this subject…and their preferences.
Truthfully, the changes needed to rebuild LGB will not be a happy time for Nurnberg or the employees.
In the past the quality of German LGB has been flawless, all makes from the far east, including LGB, have had problems.
After this subject it batted back and forth by endless armchair commando commentators, who have no financial interest of any shape, kind or form in the outcome pro or con…It comes down to one point…In 200 years who will care?
Marvin,
That post sounds quite familiar to me
Don Urquhart on the BTO forum said:
Don UrquhartJoined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 33
Location: Juniper Rd, Soutrhington, CTPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:47 am Post subject:
Viable?Not-viable = to make a great product, overprice it, and sell it at a loss!
Much of LGB production is of European prototypes and would sell well in Europe or modelers of European rail. The U.S. is in an industrial boom cycle, 4.4 unemployment rate, lots of money for hobbies. American models by other companies sell well.
Are LGB models too big a scale? (1/22 1/24 vs 1/29 1/32) Is it over priced? The changes needed to rebuild LGB will not be a happy time for Nurnberg.
In the past the quality of German LGB has been flawless, all makes from the far east, including LGB, have had problems (wheels falling off an LGB street car).
Member #5961
Southington, CT
Operating a DCS or TE control systems
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:The Lone Railroader said:
What is Viable?After this subject it batted back and forth by endless armchair commando commentators, who have no financial interest of any shape, kind or form in the outcome pro or con…It comes down to one point…In 200 years who will care?
That post sounds quite familiar to me
Never heard it, but might have read it somewhere.
However, it still comes down to… After this subject it batted back and forth by endless armchair commando commentators, who have no financial interest of any shape, kind or form in the outcome pro or con…It comes down to one point…In 200 years who will care
The Lone Railroader said:Hmmm ;) :) ;)
Never heard it, but might have read it somewhere.
EPL survived for 125 and obviously some still care and conversely some don’t .
If it makes it for 75 more it will be able to have a bicentennial - 200 years. Then we can actually say that in 200 years people still cared.
I think from an historical viewpoint it is important to keep it afloat in Nurnberg.
John Joseph Sauer said:No, what the statement was & is......"from this point in time to 200 years in the future who will care?"
EPL survived for 125 and obviously some still care and conversely some don't . If it makes it for 75 more it will be able to have a bicentennial - 200 years. Then we can actually say that in 200 years people still cared. I think from an historical viewpoint it is important to keep it afloat in Nurnberg.
Curmudgeon said:You have some very good points, but what about manufacturers of brass locos? Aren't those mostly made in places like Japan and Korea? Are they all junk?
Quality control in far east model train manufacture is virtually non-existent.
Curmudgeon said:Buy a new Ford and see how long it lasts. Maybe American auto makers used to build quality cars but that doesn't mean they still do.
Buy American. That's why my Flathead Fords are still running today, daily, older than ANY Dat-soon or Toyopet on the road.
Ah, but I specified Flathead Fords!
No mistake there.
Ever try to get some of those early (cheap Far East labor cost) brass garbage to run?
Shelf queens.
As Nippon moved to more skilled/expensive labor, the quality went up, the maufacturers went further east.
Hi all,
While we’re saving LGB - one post at a time - I’m still a bit puzzled about some statements.
For instance according to the German sources like Goede - who said that negotiations continue through this weekend - and several press reports that the “Intro/LGBoA” offer expires Friday Apr 20th, one can then read from Dave Buffington that the extension is incorrect. (The offer was originally to expire on Friday Apr 13th, someone probably got a jolt of Karma on that one!)
Hmmmm, so who is talking to the German press? OTOH I distinctly remember that there were substantial differences between the German and the English text on the announcement of the insolvency filing, could be something similar.
PS. Deutsche Bank has been added to my address book. I’ll write in German, fewer misunderstandings that way!
I see Marvin is at it again.
TonyWalsham said:And pray tell....What is again at it? Just correcting another trying to twist my words to portray an incorrect meaning that I did not write?
I see Marvin is at it again.
Why post what is actually going on?..just to get ridiculed? No, thanks. You’ll see it in print eventually…maybe??
Are you casing dispersions upon and ridicule to my person in an attempt to incite me as you have in the Off Topic Forum?
How long will Bob put up with you?..and the others?