Large Scale Central

Golden Opportunity for the Forums?

General Discussion
#41

Jerry you said:

…These manufacturers can no longer be expected to resolve any issues with existing products…

Really?

Aristo was just the front company, KADER holds the tooling, therefore KADER is who will need to be pressured to make the necessary fixes if the product line is to return, so now, MORE THAN EVER is the time to UP THE PRESSURE on Kader to make those fixes BEFORE they reintroduce the line.

How else did we get Bachmann to finally upgrade their Big Haulers for example, by putting PRESSURE on them through forums like this. True they may not allow much dissent on THEIR forums, but they do read THESE forums, its one way they gauge their public perception and the success of their products. This is why the C-19 is a far better end product than the Connie, they finally LISTENED.

They DO pay attention to public forums like this, GR MLS and even GSC. So on an UNBIASED fora world they will get either the accolades they deserve or the complaints they deserve based on how well their products are discussed online.

Limiting discussions or opinions or even yes, complaints, does NO ONE any favors in the long run.

#42

Peter,
it seems that you reduce the current manufacturer ‘controversy’ to early battery largescale sets which, due their entry level pricing, one would naturally ‘anticipate’ would be of low quality.

OK now let us elevate the situation to the more reasonable assumption that when a basic Anniversary locomotive currently sells for $400.00 downunder (my first Annies were purchased for $399.00 more than ten years ago) and that basically every other Bachmann largescale locomotive sold downunder is in the range of $1100.00 - $1300.00 and that is a DISCOUNTED price. The C-19 is not even listed downunder. When one is making such a sizable injection of capital into a toy then there are certain expectations to be had. One expects that the locomotrtive is reliable and capable of carrying out its task. One assumes that a degree of sophistication, considering its pricing, has gone into the engineering and that a responsible manufacturer selling the product has ensured that a high level of quality control has been developed to ensure that I, the customer, the consumer, will be pleased with my purchase. I do not buy just to sit on a shelf above my desk.

As consumers we are a fickle lot. We are not compelled nor do we rally NEED to purchase hobby related goods. Therefore, a sensible manufacturer once he has enticed us to buy his product would want to continue to attract us to his products. He would ensure that his products were of the highest quality comensurate with their pricing and should the inevitable occur and a consumer has an issue with his purchase then the manufacturer would not rest until the customer was satisfied.

Until the last couple of years the only way to reliably get replacement manufacturer parts was to either buy complete items on eBay to salvage for parts or to return the item to the manufacturer where parts were taken from cannibalised faulty locomotives others had returned. Spare parts for our toys is a new concept in the market that now is around twenty plus years old. Just one manufacturing fault alone has taken ten years to get a better engineered replacement part.

Perhaps because these are mere toys we have been too lenient in our criticism of manufacturers. Others believe we have been far too militant. However, change occurs as a result of action taken. Sitting back and pondering the past does not help us achieve a better outcome as consumers. Manufacturers now are aware of our expectations. Of cause we now have to pay much higher prices to realise those expectations and manufacturers should be kept on their toes ensuring that items they sell are of the highest relative quality.

#43

“Spare parts for our toys is a new concept in the market that now is around twenty plus years old”

Tim,
My sympathies for your location (not) and the price of the goodies. I don’t share your impression that spare parts is a ‘new’ concept.

I talked to the Bachmann guys at the ECLSTS (an advantage of living in MD) about the horrible spares situation quite a few years ago. Coincidently they started their ‘spare parts’ website and it continually grows. Yes, the Philly repair center could be improved, but it didn’t take them 20 years to get organized. (Maybe 15, so you get some points. :wink:

I recall getting new axle screws from Aristo (“Tate”) within a few weeks of asking many moons ago, and being able to buy spare couplers, etc., from Charles Ro at ECLSTS. Accucraft has always been responsive, and I hear Aster can’t be beat for service and spares. Even Hartland gets good reviews.

We seldom post the good news, just complain about the bad.

#44

Vic Smith said:

Aristo was just the front company, KADER holds the tooling, therefore KADER is who will need to be pressured to make the necessary fixes if the product line is to return, so now, MORE THAN EVER is the time to UP THE PRESSURE on Kader to make those fixes BEFORE they reintroduce the line.

Hi Vic,

I would go back to Bob’s well written rules and perhaps think about what he said and why he said it the way he did (no, I am not speaking for Bob).

“I don’t think XYZ is working like it should, here’s why” not “the company that makes XYZ always produces crap”

I have no insider information but if you happen to be right when you say “Aristo was just the front company, KADER holds the tooling, therefore KADER is who will need to be pressured to make the necessary fixes” the obvious question is why KADAR would do anything? Naturally the answer would be that to do something would be more profitable than to do nothing.

I do have to wonder if Aristo was just the front company - why, with all their money, would they let Aristo go out of business?

Going back to Bob’s comments, would KADAR be more inclined to listen to comments like “I don’t think XYZ is working like it should, here’s why” or to comments like “the company that makes XYZ always produces crap”

Believe it or not we are on the same side. You have an old 0-4-0 and I have an old 0-4-0. I have new 0-4-0s and you may or may not end up with a new 0-4-0. Apparently neither of us have a handy engineer and tool shop to fix our trains for us so it is up to us to build, maintain and run our layouts.

On the other hand, even if we own and may have had problems with the same brands of products, no owner of any brand tends to appreciate hearing “Bachmann is crap” and “Aristo dont know what they’re doing”.

Vic,

Feel free to do as you like. I am only responding because you addressed your comments to me.

The only point of this topic is that we might all get along better if we work together and focus on helping each other.

If someone wants to bring up something I said or did 10 years ago or last month or yesterday it does not concern me. The day I retired I stopped concerning myself with what anyone thinks or what I might have said or done 5 minutes ago. These days I play with my toys and I leave it to others to play in their own sandboxes. LSC happens to be a community sandbox.

Cheers,

Jerry

#45

Jerry McColgan said:

.…

…
If someone wants to bring up something I said or did 10 years ago or last month or yesterday it does not concern me. The day I retired I stopped concerning myself with what anyone thinks or what I might have said or done 5 minutes ago. These days I play with my toys and I leave it to others to play in their own sandboxes. LSC happens to be a community sandbox.

Cheers,

Jerry

Jerry,

That is jolly good, but you won’t get absolved of any of your past actions and statements.

:slight_smile:

The company is Kader Industrial Company Limited (Kader). If one is truly concerned about the quality that has been delivered via Aristo-Craft in the past, one can approach Kader and point out that one hopes the following sub-standard items will be rectified if they consider re-issuing those items.

Before the big brouhaha erupted it has been pointed out by more than one person in this forum that the crux is quality control.

One of my believes for many years has been: People who readily accept a sub-standard product are likely in an occupation that produces sub-standard goods. It’s the “we just buy another one” syndrome.

#46

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

Jerry,

That is jolly good, but you won’t get absolved of any of your past actions and statements.

:slight_smile:

HJ,

You gotta be kidding.

I claim full ownership of any and all of my past actions and statements. I did not say I regret or apologize for anything. In your case I choose to ignore our past relationship. You can choose to remember, bring it up or whatever you like. It is of no significance to me.

I said “The day I retired I stopped concerning myself with what anyone thinks”. That was January 1st, 2000 and since then…

I’m 69 years old. Its a bit late to go running to my mommy and telling her I said or did something isn’t it? Or did you have Pope Francis in mind? :wink:

Cheers,

Jerry

#47

Jerry McColgan said:

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

Jerry,

That is jolly good, but you won’t get absolved of any of your past actions and statements.

:slight_smile:

HJ,

You gotta be kidding.

I claim full ownership of any and all of my past actions and statements. I did not say I regret or apologize for anything. In your case I choose to ignore our past relationship. You can choose to remember, bring it up or whatever you like. It is of no significance to me.

I said “The day I retired I stopped concerning myself with what anyone thinks”. That was January 1st, 2000 and since then…

I’m 69 years old. Its a bit late to go running to my mommy and telling her I said or did something isn’t it? Or did you have Pope Francis in mind? :wink:

Cheers,

Jerry

One of the peculiarities of the Internet is “You can run, but you can’t hide.” Almost anything that one “contributed” in one form or another is still around.

Add to that “nasty people” like Dave Goodson and myself who delight in storing stuff that is just too good to be true, even stuff that miraculously “disappeared”. It makes for interesting reading when the occasion presents itself.

Revising and/or forgetting history is not as easy as it once was. :wink: :slight_smile: :wink:

#48

The plain reality is that you guys are far more interested in following me and perhaps my past than I am in you. I’m flattered but not impressed.

If anyone cares about whatever I may have said or done I would suggest that they try to sort out the entire story including the entire cast of characters and what was said or done by others that may have led to whatever it is that I said or did.

I don’t recall asking any questions or asking for any advice about anything other than whatever was in my original post.

You make an assumption that I blew up. Perhaps fed up with the BS would be a better way to describe it. Actually it was my intention to be banned from that site and I even recommended it just as I would have if anyone had posted the same on a forum of mine.

Are you going to tell me that an ex sailor (submariner no less) was offended by my language? Really?

Actually I did apologize to anyone I was aware of who was upset by my post and I would apologize to anyone else who might have been offended by it but I do not apologize for the post itself. Flat out lies and totally false accusations if not outright slander can and often will lead to what may appear as blowing up.

You seem to have forgotten the emails you sent to me as you intentionally wrecked havoc on that site.

Does “Get a Life” suggest anything?

Dinosaurs have been long extinct and are only to be found in museums or childrens’ shows these days.

Cheers,

Jerry

#49

Jerry, why is it that you only seem to post here when you want to bring your form of “civility” to the great unwashed? Seems to me that you enjoy stirring the pot.

#50

Can We just talk trains;)

#51

OK, I have just applied for an additional life. :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :-p

Presently I’m (still) building a model railway in the garden, with umpteen projects that all have to be scratchbuilt, I’m out on the railfan trail shooting video (and editing it), Winter rolls around and I’ll be XC skiing, today I picked up three additional books at the library, this morning I was out shooting pictures of the neat effects the fog and sun interplay created— while walking the dogs. Presently I’m also cooking Supper … ok that’s ready, gotta go and eat. But I applied for an additional life, just to make sure.

:slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

#52

My post actually lasted less than an hour before it was deleted early in the morning. If it had not been, I would have deleted it myself as it had served its purpose. I suspect far more have seen my post as the result of it being forwarded to them rather than ever saw it online.

Regardless you can go ahead and use it to deflect from this topic if you like. As I said, I would apologize to anyone who saw it when I posted it and was offended by it. If they saw it as a result of it being forwarded to them, they did not get it from me so I will leave it to them to figure out why it was sent to them.

Meanwhile I cannot think there is anything for me to add to this topic as I said what I wanted to say in the first post.

Smoke and mirrors.

Rant on.

Jerry

#53

Jerry,
many, many years ago I enjoyed reading of your exploits on MLS. You were always asking questions about your latest endeavours and I was interested as your questions resulted in answers from many others that was invaluable research. Your exploits with your outdoor railroad and the overhead railroad in your study had me intrigued. As I was a keen LGB ‘collector’, we shared mutual interests. Of cause you did not limit yourself to only Lehmann products but had a wide collection of largescale toys from a variety of manufacturers. You have probably owned as many toys from all the manufacturers as most on this site so no doubt you do have experience in the hobby.

Alas and I do mean unfortunately alas, you fell foul of some members over on MLS with your ‘quick tongue’. You sought refuge in ‘safer’ waters only to find that this site would not accept some of your views, culminating in your endeavours with heavily censored, totalitarian ruled forums that you moderated. You then returned to this site a few months back and posted in sideline topics on sub forum threads so that in general your presence was barely noticed. Then you dropped the bombshell with this thread. It seems that you still, after all the ridicule you have endured, persist in your need for totalitarian control of a forum site to heavily censor any opposition to your views.

As members we are all welcome to post on this site, but we know that there is only one moderator. He is not a king or a dictator or an emperor like some moderators on other sites, he is the man at the door that unlocks the door to let us in. In the main he gives us free rein to do basically what we want with few exceptions. He does not burden us with a heavy hand. It is a ‘management’ style we respect and for the most part reciprocate in kind. However, when some one comes along and tells us how the job should be done that infringes on the freedom bestowed on us then we rebel.

My humble suggestion to you is to think twice and post once. Read what you have written before posting and put yourself in our shoes and think how would these people respond to what I have written knowing what they know of me. You will find that this place will be more accomodating and welcoming.

#54

Oy veh … the thing is Jerry you say this is a communal sandbox but you sure make it sound like we are all expected to play by your expectations. I don’t recall you being on this site with any regularity until AC announced its closing. Now all this hullabaloo because you expect things measured up your way .

I said it on another post.

This is not the Aristo forum …get over it.

Its always been rougher more wild west site and thats the way most everyone seams to like it. I like I can discuss things without having to look over my shoulder least I upset the manager as long as things are relatively civil …not silky smooth as that would indicate an actual absence of genuine debate.

Thats the way alot of us want it to stay. Just as it is.

#55

Jerry McColgan said:

…

Meanwhile I cannot think there is anything for me to add to this topic as I said what I wanted to say in the first post.

Smoke and mirrors.

Rant on.

Jerry

Three pages and six additional posts to the first one … but all was said in that first post regarding this topic.

Pardon me, I’ll have to go, lie down and read some fiction to reconnect with reality.

#56

Tim Brien said:

Jerry,
You were always asking questions about your latest endeavours and I was interested as your questions resulted in answers from many others that was invaluable research.

Then you dropped the bombshell with this thread.

when some one comes along and tells us how the job should be done that infringes on the freedom bestowed on us then we rebel.

Hi Tim,

What is different from “You were always asking questions about your latest endeavours and I was interested as your questions resulted in answers from many others that was invaluable research.” and what I was suggesting when I started this topic?

What bombshell is it that I am supposed to have dropped?

How am I infringing on anyone about anything?

When I got into this hobby I knew nothing about anything. I bought stuff because I liked what I saw or I did not buy it if it did not appeal to me.

Whether I bought Aristo-Craft or Bachmann or LGB or USA or whatever I had some sort of problems because I did not know what I was doing so I went to the forums, asked my questions and figured out how to make things work. Sometimes the answer was to sell what I had on eBay and get something else but if I really liked something there was usually someone who could tell me how to fix it to fit my needs.

If I wanted a Ten Wheeler only Bachmann made it. If I wanted a Challenger or Big Boy only MTH made one I could afford. Other things were only available from Aristo-Craft or LGB or USA so I ended up buying the item I wanted which just happened to be a particular brand and scale. Prototypical accuracy became less important than a particular loco I liked or the ability of a brand to stand up to the environment I kept my trains in.

In other words I did not want to hear that Aristo or Bachmann or LGB or USA or any other brand was junk. I wanted to hear how I could get them to run on my layout as trouble free as possible and quite often I discovered that a lot I had heard simply did not prove true in my experience so I started doubting a lot of what was posted unless it was backed by specific facts.

Some people clearly dislike Aristo-Craft. Others dislike Bachmann. Still others dislike LGB or USA or any other manufacturer. I accept that they probably have reasons why they feel that way but I don’t care unless their reasons happen to prove to me to be important to me.

I have listened to the manufacturers as well but once again their reasons for doing or not doing something are less important to me than my reasons for wanting something.

Some people got offended over the years when they offered advice (solicited or unsolicited) and I chose to ignore it. Some got mad when I did not spend my money the way they told me to spend it. Some got mad because I did not dislike the companies or people they dislike. Still others got mad when they told me something was impossible and I discovered it really was possible.

It has been falsely stated on forums that I work or have worked for a manufacturer (pick one) or that I get paid to write stuff or that I get all my stuff free. All clear and blatant lies and eventually I got fed up enough to say what I thought of a forum that allowed such lies to be told and repeated again and again.

The point of this topic was that I miss the days when I entered the hobby and regardless of the brand everyone could expect someone to help them with whatever problem they had without having their favorite brand trashed.

As I have said before, I don’t think there are any bad manufacturers in this hobby but I do think that each manufacturer has a somewhat unique culture and if one makes the effort you can figure out what to expect from the various manufacturers.

In the end perhaps what upsets some folks most about me is that it really is of no consequence to me what anyone else does with their money. I may comment that I bought something but I seldom if ever suggest that anyone should rush out and spend their money on anything.

The reality about this topic is that there is nothing special about it. I just happen to be the one who posted it and if somehow that got anyone upset…

I’m one guy living in rural Arkansas. I don’t have any sort of business and I don’t have a “following.” I do have some great friends all around the world that I have met through the forums but to want to change LSC somehow? Why would I want to?

Rebel against me? Now that would be a very lonesome battlefield as I’d be home playing with my toy trains.

Relax guys. I really am just a paper tiger.

Jerry

#57

Jerry,
there is a saying if it is not broken then do not try to fix it. Most here are happy with the way things run. This is why we post here and in most cases no where else. We are happy with the occasional heated discussion and the wealth of knowledge that those site stalwarts bestow on us. The ‘bashing’ concept is a beat up by a few individuals bent on derailing any discussion on specific manufacturers. Most of us own Aristo or Bachmann or USA Trains or LGB so we are well aware of the pros and cons of each brand. Wanting a better made product is a natural feeling as we are consumers not suckers to be taken for a ride. In this day most of us are learning to live with what we have rather than constant new purchases so we want our items to be reliable and last the distance.

My advice is simply accept things as they are and enjoy the site. Do not highlight anything as regards supposed ‘lack of moderation’ or how things could be made better (a golden opportunity). Any attempt to change the status quo does get most people on edge. You come with a past so obviously many are wary when you mention the topic of moderation or how we should behave. Sit back relax, enjoy your trains and enjoy this site.

#58

Tim Brien said:

Jerry,
Sit back relax, enjoy your trains and enjoy this site.

Hi Tim,

If that is a welcome, I will accept it and we can move on.

Fair enough?

Jerry