Large Scale Central

Golden Opportunity for the Forums?

General Discussion
#21

Gordon G. Perrin, Jr. said:

A “Golden Opportunity” does exist to improve this forum. However, the “Pig” has not changed and no amount of perfume nor lipstick is going disguise that fact. The very things (pomposity, bombast, innuendao, invective, insult, ignorance, paucity, false premise, untruth, opinion, venom, rightousness, rectitude and pretention) that constitute the offending animal are still present in this thread with its current several posts. It reads much as the other offending posts in other threads.

Until humility, cordiality and civility enter the picture coupled with facts, organization and coherence, noone can expect that anything will change. Type A personalities with overweaning egos who possess some knowledge and presentation skills can create an atmosphere of discontent and dissatisfaction by insisting that their world view is the only true belief and path. I have heard the names of several individuals bandied about in a manner that defies any understanding. They do not deserve the bile and vituperation spewed upon them. There have also been other names mentioned that while deserving critical comment and perhaps civil censure certainly do not deserve the scat and offal hurled at them.

Incivility, haughtiness, disdain apppear to be a regular method to discredit and degrade the objects of wrath in these theads. They have no place on this or any forum.

Respectfully,

NYC Buff

(http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeohzt4/Seaflags/signals/int.GIF)

Falcon 104

#22

Gordon G. Perrin, Jr. said:

A “Golden Opportunity” does exist to improve this forum. However, the “Pig” has not changed and no amount of perfume nor lipstick is going disguise that fact. The very things (pomposity, bombast, innuendao, invective, insult, ignorance, paucity, false premise, untruth, opinion, venom, rightousness, rectitude and pretention) that constitute the offending animal are still present in this thread with its current several posts. It reads much as the other offending posts in other threads.

Until humility, cordiality and civility enter the picture coupled with facts, organization and coherence, noone can expect that anything will change. Type A personalities with overweaning egos who possess some knowledge and presentation skills can create an atmosphere of discontent and dissatisfaction by insisting that their world view is the only true belief and path. I have heard the names of several individuals bandied about in a manner that defies any understanding. They do not deserve the bile and vituperation spewed upon them. There have also been other names mentioned that while deserving critical comment and perhaps civil censure certainly do not deserve the scat and offal hurled at them.

Incivility, haughtiness, disdain apppear to be a regular method to discredit and degrade the objects of wrath in these theads. They have no place on this or any forum.

Respectfully,

NYC Buff

Gordon,

This forum has one distinction that sets it apart from most others: the discussion can get (very) heated, but the discussion keeps going. This in contrast to some other fora where posts are deleted, edited and otherwise mangled.

As has been pointed out by others, every once in a while there is an influx of “outsiders” i.e. people who post here very seldom and when they do, the likelihood of a brouhaha erupting is almost a given. Usually for one main reason: some of us won’t let them get away with their skewed interpretation of “facts”.

Perhaps we could compile a list of what needs fixing if and when someone resumes production of the Aristo line. And then we could take wagers how long it will take before the existence of those deficiencies will be questioned.

Time to write that factual report regarding a reasonably new LS product.

:frowning:

#23

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

Gordon,

This forum has one distinction that sets it apart from most others: the discussion can get (very) heated, but the discussion keeps going. This in contrast to some other fora where posts are deleted, edited and otherwise mangled.

As has been pointed out by others, every once in a while there is an influx of “outsiders” i.e. people who post here very seldom and when they do, the likelihood of a brouhaha erupting is almost a given. Usually for one main reason: some of us won’t let them get away with their skewed interpretation of “facts”.

Perhaps we could compile a list of what needs fixing if and when someone resumes production of the Aristo line. And then we could take wagers how long it will take before the existence of those deficiencies will be questioned.

Time to write that factual report regarding a reasonably new LS product.

:frowning:

HJ, if you decide to take on that project, give me a decent heads up, so I have time to set the fire watch. (http://www.freerails.com/images/emoticons/yahoo.gif)(http://www.freerails.com/images/emoticons/gerg.gif)(http://www.freerails.com/images/emoticons/Toothgrin.gif)

#24

HJ, I think someone should point out one thing that hasn’t really been pointed out …

This is not the Aristo forum…get over it.

This forum has been around in its present form for a good while now. Yes, Its rougher and has more bumps and a more open Wild West atmosphere, that means some folks might get a little saddle sore faster than on other forums they may have been on. But thats the way most all of us that have been here a long spell like it.

Advice to newcomers Get a thicker blanket under your saddle and you’ll be alot more comfortable. Because your not going to change the rodeo rules to your personal rules, you’ll have to adjust to the rules the rodeo already has.

Bob is far more lenient than alot of other forums. We want it to stay that way. Bumps and warts and all…

#25

Steve LOL Falcon

:smiley:

#26

Vic, that needs to be stated over and over, again and again. Well said.

This is Bob’s Publick House, where the discussion gets a little heated from time to time. If that is not to your fancy, go back to the stables, get your horse and move on to the next Publick House.

We are like family, here, but you are welcome, Stranger, to sit by the fire and regale us with tales of strange lands and fair damsels. Have some of Fr Fred’s Holy Water, and Sing your Song.

Any discussion among family members can, from time to time, get heated, but that does not mean that civility is lost. As a newcomer to the Publick House, we ask that you just sit quietly, listen, and perhaps even learn our customs and traditions. It is extremely important for your safety that you do not take sides, as this might be misinterpreted as misbehavior towards one (or several) of the family. Should you misbehave, and forget you manners towards one of the family, you may find yourself tossed out into the muddy courtyard, with the pigs and the chickens.

It is quite probable that if you stay here long enough, you will become part of the family, able to freely join in all discussions, heated or not.

#27

Vic, do you understand Falcon?

#28

Its amazing what you can learn on the internet
Falcon 115
:wink:

#29

Vic,

I agree, every time Steve comes up with one of those sailor terms it’s WHAT! Maybe we should print them out for quick reference.

I printed out the FB smilies (or some of them anyway).

#30

A heavily moderated forum like the Aristo-Craft Forum has its place. I participate and occasionally post. I am as amused and bemused by the antics on that forum as I am by the behavior on this forum and the “My Large Scale” forum. Banter and counterpoint are fine and necessary to any discourse. But the banter and counterpoint need not be incivil and contentious.

I am not a fan of Lewis Polk but listing faults real or presumed that he possesses is not productive. The same is true for Charlie Sr. and Charlie Jr. at USA Trains. These people are businessmen who provide product for the consumer. Some do it more effectively than others but none have a perfect irreproachable product. Pick a potential fault and it exists in any product to some degree. This is a simple irreducible fact.

One person has left this forum and my large scale and was banned by Aristo-Craft solely because he reports facts. Certainly, there have been instances where those reports have prose that could be misconstrued as inflammatory but was never incivil, lacking cordiality or disdainful. He was accused of many sins that I have not been able to detect. Many others have felt wrath from a cadre of believers that want their belief to be the only true and righteous way.

This behavior is wrong. You can have a rough and tumble bout without violating simple social rules of conduct. I enjoy a challenge to a view when it is well reasoned and argued. However, that is rarely the case on this or the other fora.

Respectfully,

NYC Buff

#31

Gordon, I find that almost all of the time (more than 95%), it is the trolls, the folks who rarely come here to post, who cause the problem. They are the ones who lack civility. It is they who go on the attack, making it hard to ignore them. Once they are responded to, they then claim victim-hood.

Perhaps we should make a pact not to respond to anyone who has less than, say, 250 posts. do you think that might help?

#32

Vic Smith said:
Its amazing what you can learn on the internet Falcon 115 :wink:

Falcon 136

#33

Mr, Featherkile,

Please enlighten me regarding your reference (Falcon 104 with the field diagram?). It is something not in my ken.

Your help is appreciated!

Respectfully,

NYC Buff

#34

Gordon G. Perrin, Jr. said:

Mr,(sic) Featherkile,

Please enlighten me regarding your reference (Falcon 104 with the field diagram?). It is something not in my ken.

Your help is appreciated!

Respectfully,

NYC Buff

Mr. Perrin, Jr.

The Naval Pennant Interrogative that is represented by the “gif”

(http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeohzt4/Seaflags/signals/int.GIF)

decodes as “Message Not Understood.”

Falcon 104 is a voice code that is often used by Naval Aviators, and by Marines to mean much the same thing.

#35

Steve Featherkile said:

Vic Smith said:
Its amazing what you can learn on the internet Falcon 115 :wink:

Falcon 136

Falcon 144 with a Big wink and a smile

#36

“why the heck am I even buying this in the first place?”

I don’t know what has brought out the ranting and raving, seemingly on every topic, this week.

It does occur to me that we expect too much from our toys. I bought my first large scale train set at Toys R Us for $45 some time in the early 1990s. It was great value for the money, and I wasn’t surprised when I learned that the plastic wheels would wear out, or that I’d have to replace the batteries regularly. It has pride of place on the shelf over my desk these days, along with a first generation Aristo Pacific and a Lionel Atlantic. All great value for the money.

I think we (collectively) misunderstand the “value” equation. We buy things because of perceived value, but then we find they aren’t as good as we hoped. Maybe, just maybe, we are expecting too much. Maybe it takes more money and investment to make a better product.

The live steam crowd have a constant but civil argument going on between the Aster fans (expensive, Japanese-made) and the Accucraft/Wuhu fans (not-so-expensive, Chinese made.) The latter are not as perfect as the former, and you can only imagine the pain when someone buys a $4,600 steam engine and discovers he has to fix it to make it run.

Many of the products castigated around here are sold at very low prices. Maybe that’s what they are worth, and expecting perfection for that price is a waste of your time.

#37

Perhaps it might help to go back and re-read my original post.

I did not say that I have changed my attitude about anything. I did not apologize for anything I have posted anywhere. If someone wishes to quote me feel free to do so but be fair and post the whole story not just a one sided version.

I never co-founded a forum but I have moderated some forums and owned some forums. I make no apology for how a forum I owned or moderated was managed (check those forum rules - members accepted them or did not join). Courtesy and Respect were not just in the rules the rules were enforced which naturally upset the offenders. Regretfully I do not have Dave Buffington’s skills as a forum administrator.

There are members here who have negative opinions about me and they are welcome to their opinions. I would not expect or attempt to change them.

If it is true that the old LGB is dead what good is there in complaining about it? There is no one left to complain to or to do anything for you or for me.

If it is true that Polk’s is closing 12-31-13 what good is there in complaining about it? There will be no one left to complain to or to do anything for you or for me.

If you want to complain, go right ahead and do it. Maybe it will make you feel better and there is nothing in the rules against it. My only point is that there is or will be no one at the companies left to hear you or do anything for you or me.

The reality is that I have had many of the same problems with my trains etc. that many have posted about. I usually don’t post anything about it because eventually the manufacturer or someone else may come out with a solution or I might find a way to fix it or I may just have to live with it.

If you want to make this topic about me go ahead and do it.

If you are willing to read Bob’s forum rules they happen to be very similar to the rules of the Aristo-Craft forum, and the forums I have owned and moderated. It is logical that an Aristo-Craft Forum or an LGB Forum or a Bachmann Forum would have little tolerance for negative comparisons with competitive brands or being told how to run their companies.

My layouts are complete so I spend less time on the forums anymore but I have been a member of both LSC (10+ years) and MLS and other forums for many years.

This topic is what it is. This is not my forum in any way shape or form and I made no suggestion that I have anything to do with how it is run.

I just don’t “get” the undercurrent of anger to be found on most public forums.

Jerry

#38

I agree that the forum needs to get back to what it was and for the most part still is and that is a place where guys and gals with the same interests (trains) can get together and talk trains. Train talk includes the good, the bad, but personally I’d like to see less of the ugly. Can’t we all just get along? under the common banner of having fun with trains?

I believe the underlaying undercurrent of anger that has plagued this forum and so many others is a direct result of the economy and the uncertain rocky dangerous path our so called leaders are taking this country down. I’m a member on citydata which is a forum that deals with everything, and I have been called stupid and a liar for typing my opinions. I have also had many positive comments to my posts from like minded folks.

It is so easy to type a controversial message but not so easy to deliver the same face to face.
This is Bobs’ train room and we all need to conduct ourselves as if we were in his room.
These trains are toys and should be fun and talking about them just as fun. So lets play nice.

#39

Jerry McColgan said:

…

This topic is what it is. This is not my forum in any way shape or form and I made no suggestion that I have anything to do with how it is run.

I just don’t “get” the undercurrent of anger to be found on most public forums.

Jerry

Jerry,

If I don’t get or no longer get the “undercurrent” on fora then I either quit (very officially) or I just read/check-in occasionally and come to the conclusion that it is “same old, same old”, not worth my time to get either excited about or comment.

I also manage to ignore “things” i.e. I don’t need a point system (input from others) to decide if I like what I read or look at. OTOH I must say that some of the posts on the fora make for a good chuckle on the phone or extra smilies in a private email.

Which, I have been told, is not very nice, but I really don’t give a fig.

While recuperating from my open heart surgery in 2011 I decided that my remaining lifespan is too short to still deal with people I have no use for.

BTW this forum is very well run (Thank you Bob!) and runs very well (most of the time), i.e. a “Reformation” is uncalled for!

This is, as always, strictly my opinion.

#40

Pete theirs a big difference between a battery Big Hauler set for $45 that eventually wore out and a $150 locomotive that has known defects before it even left the factory.

Yes I have REASONABLE expectations that when I spend money on something its going to work for a REASONABLE period of time, and not go south a couple months after I buy it.

I really truly fail to see where that is somehow an UNREASONABLE expectation these days? Are we SO conditioned to sub-par products from the get go that we have been desensitized to reasonable expectations?

Maybe that is the case, at least in LS?

As I said I know this is possible due to my Marx sets, these were the Big Haulers of their day, the set for kids too poor to afford Lionel, they were cheap, some would even say disposable, but guess what they were also VERY WELL made, so well that my 1930’s era Marx trains run as well today as they did the day they were made, and these were the cheap “disposable” trains.